Editorial Note: Last week in Greg’s Dilemma, Greg outlined the difficulties he had with dependence on and withdrawal from serotonin reuptake inhibitors and benzodiazepines. The first comment was from a therapist who seemed to say “pull yourself together”. This eerily echoed the next part of Greg’s dilemma – that could have been posted last week but was held over till this week. Our response will come next week.
Jeffrey Junig
A comment that psychiatrist Jeffrey Junig made once haunts me. He had been writing a blog on psych central where he was dismissing the likelihood of prolonged protracted withdrawal symptoms from benzodiazepines. Several of us went on the comment site to rebut and share our experiences. To one person claiming problems of cognitive fog, etc, he wrote the following:
“You must recognize by now, after your frustration with the medical system, that whatever is going on with your health has no ‘plausible’ explanation. I suspect, though, that someone trained in neuroscience and medicine will have a better likelihood of coming up with a plausible theory, than someone without that training.
Millions (literally) of people have started and stopped benzodiazepines who have no complaints of ‘problems following lists or written instructions, reduced ability to think creatively and abstractly, poor focus and concentration.’ Your theory is that there is something special about YOUR brain, causing you to have a different experience than other humans. Yes– there are enough people with symptoms like yours to fill a web forum or two—- but among the 200 million people in this country alone, there are large groups of people complaining of pretty much any symptom you can imagine. That’s human nature.
The idea that you, and perhaps another 0.1% of the population (that’s generous), have something different about your brain that made it respond in the way you describe, is not plausible to me.
On the other hand, conditioning is a universal phenomenon– in almost all animal life. Conditioning is why you find your way home at the end of the day. I am confident I could ride a bike today, even though I haven’t been on one in 25 years; that’s the power of conditioning.
The first issue in your case is distinguishing whether you truly HAVE ‘trouble following lists or written instructions, reduced ability to think creatively and abstractly, poor focus and concentration’– or if instead you only THINK you do. If you want to know the answer to that question, see a neuropsychologist and go through the battery of tests that determine those things. But if you do that, be prepared to accept the likely answer– that you are normal in all of those things.
If you DO have those problems, then you have to consider a mechanism— and a reason why you are uniquely effected. You also have to rule out other reasons…. for example, something must have been a problem for you, for you to start benzos in the first place. Either you had anxiety, or you had an addictive nature that caused you to take them. How do you know that one of those things– things that were present BEFORE the benzos– didn’t progress to your current problems?
This is often what I fear is wrong with me, that I’ve conditioned myself to have these reactions. My mom was on Zoloft for several years and went off it with only a few days of brain zaps. Why is this so severe for me? I don’t have the self-confidence to be calmed by the thought that I’m an outlier or that maybe way more people do have problems but don’t recognize the problem as from their medication. There are millions of people who are taking or have taken SSRIs and benzos who, as Junig mentions, seem to have nowhere near the trouble getting off the meds that I have had.
And on the other side, I read from those critical of psychiatry that these drugs cause irreversible changes in brain functioning. Trust me, when you have exaggerated anxiety to negative thoughts, reading that only heightens the feelings of helplessness. Maybe there isn’t anything that can be done for me. I can’t go on like this indefinitely, I know this. So I ask you again:
What am I supposed to do?
mary says
Another riveting read – makes me feel thankful for the sensitivity of the psychiatrists that we have met over the last 13 years or so! I would love to ask Jeffrey Junig how on earth he imagines that any of his comments could possibly help Greg to come to terms or heal from his problems – whatever their cause. Surely, even if he disagrees with Greg’s interpretation of his condition, a little respect would go a long way to supporting him in his long struggle to better health. Looking forward now to RxISK’s suggestions next week!
Johanna says
Oh, that’s great. “Your original symptoms were definitely a brain disease warranting powerful psychotropic medications. But your problems on the powerful psychotropic medications? Those, my boy, are all in your head. I advise counseling to get over them.”
All of this without benefit of actually meeting the patient, of course … Do you think a bit of intellectual laziness has set in? No wonder many patients are not the least bit upset when someone proposes to replace their “treating physician” with a smartphone app.
Carla says
Psychiatrist Jeffrey Junig, has no idea what he is talking about!
With all his experience and knowledge, no amount of theory will justify his ‘theoretical response’.
He is just passing the ‘buck’ and suggesting that someone trained in neuroscience or medicine is more equipped to give a logical response and explanation to his medical condition.
Perhaps, Jeffery Junig, is failing to address his inadequate knowledge in what some unfortunate souls experience.
Perhaps, he should pose a question to Big Pharma and ask some intelligent questions outside his ‘normal scope of thinking’.
We will never know if Big Pharma is tampering with some medicines and now for the BIG QUESTION: Why do some patients experience unfortunate maladies whilst others have no issues?
Once again, Jeffery Junig, your profession fails you and others because it is not within your scope of expertise and knowledge.
The ones who do not have the issues that Greg has had to endure most likely have other medical issues.
Maybe your brain is wired differently.
You lack the emotional intelligence, compassion and empathy to understand why he is suffering from these medical symptoms.
When something is not within your expertise, it makes you feel ‘superior’ by judging Greg by the following response:
‘ The idea that you, and perhaps another 0.1% of the population (that’s generous), have something different about your brain that made it respond in the way you describe, is not plausible to me’.
Inadequate response, don’t you think?
Where did you get your 0.1% statistics?
You are very generous to imply that Greg has a unique brain.
Perhaps he has more heart and soul than you do?
Your ‘harsh, cold, clinical, shallow’ response/diagnosis, is not a valid interpretation/reflection of what this poor man is suffering.
Perhaps you should try living with the condition that he and others have to endure.
You would be surprised how your ‘narrow way of thinking’ would be revolutionised.
It would surprisingly ‘mock’ your expertise, skills and experience.
Jeffery Junig, you may have to accept that the medication has had an impact on his brain.
Other medicines or drugs in his system may have made his condition worse: this may also be the case!
You and I will never know?
Just try to understand Jeffery, what Greg is dealing with and research study 329.
Unfortunately, Benzos and other dubious medicines, do impact the brain and there is no doubt that this poor man struggles with his condition.
Blaming or passing judgement or coming up with some ‘smart ass theory’ does not help Greg or others to cope with their condition.
Perhaps, you can be of benefit if you come up with some strategies on how Greg and others can cope with their condition, it would be of some reassurance, comfort and benefit.
Perhaps Greg had anxiety, depression or some other condition before he ingested Benzos’- Are you for real?
He never would of suffered with those horrible symptoms before he ingested the Benzos’.
Perhaps Jeffery, needs to ask further questions to Big Pharma because he and others, thinking along the same line, are not going to benefit anyone by pointing the finger at other issues, which are irrelevant.
There are people out there coping the best way with what they have got.
Imagine, if an individual has a car accident and the individual is left with one leg.
That unfortunate soul has to learn to cope with one leg.
The brain is the same.
Just because you cannot visually see the damage the medicine has done, it does not mean that the individuals malady is all ‘psychosomatic’.
Sometimes, tests upon tests conclude absolutely nothing.
Nerve inflammation of the brain cannot be detected.
Minute arteries and veins may be blocked as a result of a cerebral stroke and the only way to test if this is the case is with more invasive tests.
The medication may be sitting in one hemisphere or tiny section of the brain, causing many issues and problems for the inflicted.
The blood brain barrier may be damaged. Hence the reason why poor Greg may be suffering from ‘brain fog’.
The brain is a very delicate organ and if one has an adverse reaction to a medicine, or suffers from outside ‘the text book theories’ , you or no one has the right to judge or categorise the condition because it is outside your text book theory.
Medicine has come a long way, it has also done a lot of damage along the way.
Not all tests are black/white. There are many shades of grey.
With all the research, knowledge, advanced science and theory, medicine still has a long way to go.
Perhaps we should focus on the harm Big Pharma causes and enlighten our minds on how we can improve the health system without causing much harm to our fellow human being.
Now this is a positive start, Jeffery : )
Carla says
At times, I am amazed by what is written on Rxisk.
There are times when compassion/empathy/moral support and encouragement, can lift up the spirits of an individual.
There are times when words cut so deep and remind me that many, even the educated can come up with some hurtful responses.
If they were to walk just one day in our shoes, I am certain that their response would be more understanding.
To all those inflicted with some form of condition, just remember these few words of comfort:
‘Success is not final, failure is not fatal.
It is the courage to continue that counts.
Winston Churchill
Carla says
To think that a pill can cause so much harm. One day we will know the truth, Big Pharma and all the innocent people who have been harmed, will rejoice in knowing that Justice has been served. They can no longer mock us ~ You know who you are, my friends. Greg, and others take heed in knowing that Justice will be done.
annie says
This is what Dr. Mickey, said:
http://1boringoldman.com/index.php/2015/12/12/an-aside-3/
…….instead of pretending patients are chemistry sets….
An aside, App, a lachia…meets….aah, guile
“I’m surprised and pleased…
Laurie Oakley says
Even if one has the battery of tests he recommends, if there are no prior tests with which to make a comparison, a person can look just fine to doctors who don’t know them near well enough to notice losses or changes in functioning. Telling them what you know about yourself will usually get you nowhere. If it’s not known (by them), measured, or measurable, they don’t believe. (How could we know a thing about our own selves–we can’t be trusted with ourselves, our bodies. Without measurable, medical tests, humans and their bodies are just unfortunate liars. Listen to the doctors. Science, afterall).
Then we compensate as well as we can because, hello, we’ve still got lives to navigate. This resilience would be praiseworthy if we were dealing with something like cancer, but I know in my case compensation hides the damage and hinders my ability to get anyone to believe me.
But Greg, by all means be resilient. I remember being a complete scrambled egg inside after the drugs got through with me. It’s an unsettling memory. You deserve a metal for just BEING where you are right now because this is such a hard thing to endure. If you have any traction at all, keep going with that. Getting through this might be what’s really going to make you, and if you end up with a few scars, consider them well earned.
It’s commendable to be open and to and consider many points of view, but sometimes you just have to say enough is enough. Sometimes it’s okay to find and embrace what’s true for you.
For the sake of sanity, protect yourself from the words of deniers and victim blamers and call that sh*t out for what it is. We didn’t have to prove we were depressed before they handed us the pills and we don’t have to wonder why we’re worse off now. We know.
Carla says
It is a real travesty of justice when someone prescribes you this ‘python of a medicine’ without understanding your dilemma.
Loss of income.
Loss of dignity.
Impact on family.
No one taking any accountability for the harm the poison has induced.
Deniability- some clinicians/politicians giving you the run around because they don’t care.
Flawed ‘labels’ about an individuals’ condition
Lies/deceit especially, by those we put our trust in.
Unfortunately, PTSD leaves a deep scar on the individual concerned
Ongoing health issues that never existed before the ‘python medicine’ was ingested.
Wanting to take my own life.
Would I have taken this lethal medicine if I knew my fate?
If I knew all about the risks and adverse side effects, I would of immediately declined and put up with the pain in my ears and would of been patient until my horrible symptoms subsided.
The clinician concerned prescribed this ‘poison’ without having talked to me.
For God sake, he prescribed this medicine by conversing with my husband over the phone.
I honestly thought that it was a ‘pain killer’ for the excruciating pain I was experiencing from my ear condition.
There was ‘no civil communication between ear specialist or myself’.
This is how things get out of hand.
Why prescribe something to someone without their consent?
I am still dumbfounded about the whole situation till this day.
It is also horrible when something ‘tragic happens’ and they leave you in a lurch.
This is what I call: lack of care.
They didn’t care and still continue to not care.
That’s why I don’t trust clinicians.
When something goes wrong with these pills, I was left to ‘pick up the pieces’ – no one else bothered to do the right thing by me.
Greg and others, you are not alone.
We may not have the support by those who ‘failed’ to do the right thing by us.
Hopefully, we have moral support we can count on when everything/everyone else have ‘failed’ us.
This is a horrible nightmare that no one should have to endure.
I just want all the ‘injustice to end’.
I may not have had a chance to have ‘my voice’ heard in a court of law but David has given me an opportunity to say tell my story.
Perhaps, one day, the people who have denied me of my ‘basic rights’ will come forward and apologise for the devastating impact that these poisons induce.
If I am fortunate I may even get an apology from those who left me in a lurch.
For now, like someone said:
“We should count our blessings that we are still alive because the outcome could have been worse’.
Looking back, which is so easy to do, I would have preferred a gentle lesson.
I guess we all do.