Dependence on Antidepressants and The New York Times

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April 17, 2018 | 72 Comments

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  1. Just maybe president Trump has had some influence on reporters – by cracking down on
    the legal prescribing of opioids he made sure it got public attention so now the Times is more confident about reporting a mega story about anti depressants. It would be interesting if some study could be carried out to see what effect the publicity is having, if any, to see if AD prescribing is going down rather than increasing either by people declining to take them or by fewer prescriptions and whether there is an increase in honest informed consent for those who choose to take them despite the risks. Shame the psychiatrist in Southampton mentioned in the N Y Times is only being funded to set up online tapering advice when what is desperately needed is research into who should not be prescribed ADs in the first place and into the causes of the adverse effects , they could even claim the Rxisk prize – I guess the cynically minded can think of a few reasons why that is not happening.

  2. I cannot really comment on tapering from ADs but can offer a few pointers from observing my son tapering from an antipsychotic – one that is also now used as an antidepressant I believe.
    To anyone tapering, I would say – things will get worse before they get better. This, in my son’s case does not happen as he’s tapering but a couple of weeks further on, while he’s recovering before his next taper. He has a spell of 10 – 14 days which are far worse than anytime that he was on the full dose. However, following that difficult time, he slowly improves and more of the real person is seen than has been visible for a very long time.
    When tapering, in his case at least, ‘slow’ takes on a whole different meaning! He has been tapering now for over two and a half years and has a long way to go yet. One reduction of 25 mg. takes at least 3 months from the first taper to the last drop and on through the rough patch. He then takes a few weeks’ break before the next cut. Liquid form of the drug plays a very important part here.
    The greatest need, in my opinion, during this whole process, is support. This covers family, friends and professionals – all being essential to making the whole journey possible.
    If my son’s experience is in any way following a ‘normal’ course, I would say to anyone thinking of withdrawal or already in the throes of it – stick to it, you may well be surprised at your own determination and be rewarded with spells of feeling better than you did for many a year.
    (I fully appreciate that this will not run true for ALL cases – but without trying, no one would ever know the possibilities.)

    • If I may make a suggestion: It sounds like decreases of 25mg are a little too drastic for your son. He may tolerate decreases of 10mg better.

      (If you have been tapering by 25mg from the beginning, the percentage of the decrease has been getting larger as the dosage is getting smaller. Further decreases of 25mg are likely to become more difficult as more precipitous drops in dosage.)

      If he’s taking an antipsychotic because he once displayed symptoms labeled “psychotic”, it’s very important that he avoid destabilizing his nervous system while tapering. If he displays withdrawal symptoms that might be called “psychotic”, he will be re-medicated.

      • Thanks for your comment. I should have explained in more detail. The ’25mg drop’ does NOT happen in one go – far from it! he transfers from 25mg to 5ml of the liquid and stabilises on that. He then decreases 0.1 ml at a time – staying for a good few days on that dose before dropping the next 0.1 ml. This is why it takes such a long time to complete a 25mg drop. He did his first ever reduction as a 25mg removal all in one – never again! Sorry for the confusion and thanks for drawing my attention to it – my head knows how it goes; the reader obviously does not!

        • This blog post was the topic of our discussion at the withdrawal group last evening. It seemed to provide a perfect balance of information, warning, and encouragement. Mary, your comments here were particularly useful, as was Altostrata’s comment on nervous system destabilization below. I’m definitely bookmarking this one to refer back to in future meetings.

  3. We all have our own experience of ‘withdrawal’ and how we did it or did not do it.

    I was like so many others, I just wanted to get off Paroxetine, coolly, calmly, competently and completely

    The advice one every other day for two weeks was given by the GP.

    This was terrible advice.

    GSK, in their leaflet, suggest, drop 10%, over the course of two weeks.

    You could say the GP misinterpreted the 10% idea, but being dropped from 20 mg., was like being dropped in to the abyss..

    So, the terrible idea was overseen and the following year, now on 40 mg, I have the year long programme of dropping over a year.

    You wouldn’t think a couple of ml., which is minute, would devastate the nervous system like it did.

    The devastating side effects were a replica of the year before, but, this was from a couple of ml. and not from a sudden drop of 20 mg. You probably won’t try and kill yourself from a drop of 10 ml.

    Aka GSK.

    There seems to be block at the last couple of ml.

    Why not, after your long, slow, taper, work backwards..

    If you feel absolutely stultified, tweak it up, just a tiny bit, for a couple of days or so, if you don’t see any improvement, a tiny bit more, until you reach that little oasis where things are slight more comfortable.

    Sit on that and try it again and again and again ..

    You might hack it, you might not..

    I was absolutely determined to crack it and this meant months in a state of delirium and psychosis, in bed, total darkness, no sounds, no light. No radio, no books, no nothing …

    No doctors .. I couldn’t risk any setbacks, any more drugs, any more unwelcome criticism, any more interference ..

    I slowly crawled back in to the light .. but not without substantial damage ..

    You could say my ‘self imposed’ exile from the world for those months meant I had cracked it, or, you could say, was it worth it?

    • If I had know what was to happen to me when I stopped taking Paroxetine I would never had done it . It started a chain reaction that there was no turning back from it’s been 13 years now and I still have enduring symptoms that very much interfere with my life.

      • I cold turkeyed from 10mg off Seroxat after 13 years use I was on 30mg and 20mg some off those years my doctor told me I could stop after taking one every other day etc.Its taken me six years to see any improvements I was damaged mentally and physically and this was hell on earth for years I believe I have suffered neurological problems and definitely intermittently psychotic severe ocd during withdrawal for years which I never had before taking. Never been the same life still very hard don’t take any medication now haven’t for five years don’t know how I got through the worse off it. These drugs cure nothing if you have problems before taking these pills come off after a decade and your experience a hell u couldn’t imagine which will make your initial problems look like a picnic. The withdrawal symptoms are not the return off your illness as far as I’m concerned they are nervous system and brain damage they steal your life.

  4. We got some interesting first-person comments via Twitter. This one is from @kwardvancouver:

    I stopped taking psych meds over a year ago. A rotating cast of anti-depressants, a mood-stabilizer, eventually antipsychotics ~✺ a bipolar deal, autism spectrum, accumulated trauma. Withdrawal symptoms were rough but manageable.

    The return of actual feeling was unexpected and amazing … NYT article below is well done.

    Another (extended) comment, from @swollespirit:

    Was given #Paxil when I was 15 after one psych session. There was no follow-up & I wasn’t warned how awful SSRI withdrawal is. (My brain LITERALLY shook in my head.) Informed consent matters, along with alternatives to drugs & support for those looking to get off.

    Seriously, the worst withdrawals I’ve ever experienced have been from SSRIs. Meth is dreamy compared to #Paxil, but which drug gets all the hand-wringing & hysteria? And the way psychs mystify withdrawal-pain as the “reappearance of illness symptoms” is SO unethical & dishonest.

    I hear ALL THE TIME from illicit drug-users who’ve been punished for refusing SSRIs as part of their “treatment,” even though we KNOW how terrible these drugs were for us. People have a right to decide what pharmaceuticals they take AND to refuse substances.

    Granted, the negative effects of SSRIs are particularly intense on women, as compulsory thinness/sexuality & being emotionally tuned-in are all gendered. I feel for the women who benefit from these drugs, but are also pressured for not performing femininity “correctly” on them …

  5. Dr. Peter Kramer, bestselling author of Listening to Prozac (a 1993 love-letter to SSRI’s) as well as Against Depression and Ordinarily Well (two passionate defenses of SSRI’s) weighed in as well. His theme was the standard one: This article (even though it comes from responsible folks) may do harm by scaring away vulnerable patients who need these drugs so badly:

    Re: #antidepressant #withdrawal / #discontinuation symptoms: It is good to be consulted by @NYTimes & @bencareynyt. I am accurately represented—thanks. But I worry that the article exaggerates the problem & will discourage those in need from seeking help.

    This particular theme always gets under @RxISK’s skin, and provoked us into replying to Dr. Kramer with a wee bit more drama than usual:

    We have suffered much at the hands of MDs who seek to “protect us from the facts” about the drugs they prescribe. Perhaps worst is being taught to blame our own biology for the harms we suffer, and to see ourselves as incurably ill “despite” treatment. @nytimeswell @gebeloffnyt

    A few more Tweeters with “lived experience” of this problem took him on in more detail, including Greg who has written for our blog (“Greg’s Dilemma”). Kramer actually engaged in the debate with Greg—but then, alas, he deleted all his tweets. (Except the one accepting Greg’s apology for having stooped to a bit of name-calling.)

    Courage. They don’t call it a cardinal virtue for nothing …

    • NYT.
      Johanna,

      I was astonished to read in the PsychiatricTimes ( April 2018 . Volume XXXV. No4) : –

      Online Communities for Drug Withdrawal: What Can We Learn?
      (Joseph Witt-Doerring et al).

      There is discussion of the complexity and severity of antidepressant withdrawal.

      “It is interesting to note that the patient narratives from these websites are generating early clinical data that researchers are using to learn more about unexpectedly difficult withdrawal symptoms and syndromes”.

      — “The message is that physicians have been unprepared for the withdrawal disorders and are unable to treat or even guide patients through complicated withdrawal from these substances”.

      —-“Recognition that a patient has incurred an iatrogenic complication is essential in the recovery process”.

      —-“Given the current state of our understanding of complex withdrawal syndromes, increased awareness of these syndromes among providers is of the utmost importance. These syndromes need further research, or more patients will continue to turn away from the medical establishment to look for support from other patients on the internet”.

      The Psychiatric Times is marketed as the magazine “that psychiatrists read from cover to cover”.

      Has Peter Kramer missed this welcome gesture of humility, and the author’s courage to apparently recognise the possibility that patients have a far greater knowledge and understanding of the vast repertoire of SSRI/SNRI severe adverse drug reactions, and a detailed awareness of the long-denied withdrawal syndromes which cause such protracted iatrogenic misery?

  6. oh, this just keeps going on and on and on with the mainstream resisting the truth…it’s tiresome to say the very least.

    I’m still healing and still sharing ways to get through the protracted withdrawal…and yeah, activity and exercise etc is great IF and WHEN it’s possible…it’s not always — as you suggest. I ended up bedridden some years ago for a few years. I got up out of bed slowly by doing yoga…in bed…starting with a leg up and turning my foot in circles…an arm up and turning my hand in circles…slowly, slowly until I started walking and moving more and more….learning to pay attention to our broken nervous system in mindfulness slowly brings about healing.

    I loved that you mentioned knitting and it reminded me of a friend of mine who wrote an article some years ago now because she found it so profoundly meditative…I loved it:

    “A crafty recovery: knitting as therapeutic and meditative vehicle” – Everything Matters: Beyond Meds https://beyondmeds.com/2013/07/21/crafty-recovery/

    bottom line is there are as many ways to recover as there are human beings…for better or worse this is an opportunity to get to know ourselves and to learn to trust that which helps us feel better.

    thanks for continuing to educate folks on how pysch drugs harm.

    • Monica

      Thanks for this comment. Its great to hear from you. You and Altostrata have done so much to keep this issue in the public domain and in particular for keeping hope alive among people. Perhaps actually its because you been someone who has struggled with the issues is where the hope for others comes from. The same messages from professionals who either haven’t struggled with the issues or don’t admit to having – don’t carry the same weight.

      David

  7. This observation is potentially incredibly useful to reorient our very (naturally) biologically-minded medical practitioners: “This anxiety may be coming from the body and not the brain. There is very little serotonin in the brain – it’s mostly in the body. There is a strong chance the problem links to a disturbance of peripheral nerves around the body with the brain reading abnormalities in the transmission of signals from the body as anxiety – a completely different kind of anxiety to the original problem.”

    Please reply, or post, with published article references in regard “There is very little serotonin in the brain – it’s mostly in the body” as data in regard this (evidence-based I’m sure) observation may prove very helpful indeed with GPs/psychiatry trainees. Many thanks indeed, Rob Purssey

  8. So Long and Thanks for all the Serotonin

    April, 27, 2015 | 29 Comments

    Data Based Medicine @RxISK • Apr 25

    1/ Lots of reactions, pro & con, to @DrDavidHealy BMJ article on myth of “low serotonin” — but only one makes the @RxISK crew angry:

    Data Based Medicine @RxISK • Apr 25

    2/ “Well yes, in general you’re right .. but you mustn’t say that where vulnerable patients can hear.” That is a betrayal of our trust.

    ‘The discomfort that David Healy’s editorial in BMJ caused reflects a general embarrassment at the emptiness of current research in mood disorders. The yield has not been commensurate with the billions of dollars thrown at the problem – to the point where most corporations have exited the field out of a healthy self-interest.

    Little wonder, then, that the movers and shakers and wannabes are now throwing the book at Dr. Healy for stating the obvious.’

    https://davidhealy.org/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-serotonin/

    ‘It is only going to change from the bottom up.’ ..

  9. By Benedict Carey

    April 17, 2018

    In a widely read article on antidepressant withdrawal published on April 8, The New York Times invited readers to describe their experiences coming off the drugs. More than 8,800 people responded — teenagers, college students, new mothers, empty-nesters retirees.

    Dozens did write in to say the drugs had been lifesaving, literally so. “You fail to acknowledge that mood disorders can be lifelong, debilitating diseases requiring lifelong medical treatment,” wrote Rachel S., of New York.

    A different kind of reader query would likely have attracted thousands of responses of gratitude for drugs that offered relief to tens of millions of people with chronic mood problems. Some doctors chimed in, too, more than one calling our focus on withdrawal irresponsible and unduly alarming to those who might benefit from antidepressants.

    The volume and diversity of the other responses painted a different picture …

    For now, no one has good answers for them. The drugs are a brand new cultural development, historically speaking, and their diffuse biological effects — especially in the developing brain — are largely unknown.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/health/antidepressants-withdrawal-readers.html

    Whatever their ages, all of us are part of Generation Rx — a huge, uncontrolled experiment with little precedent and few guideposts.

  10. There seems to be a deliberate effort to block open debate, dissent and rightful criticism as David points out . Apologies that I can’t give the link but here is another case in point. There is a proposal to update the Mental Health Act with the mental health alliance -being chaired by simon wessley (who does have a bit of a record of blocking communication himself.) There is anxiety being expressed that the proposal may be seeking to increase powers of coercion. Duncan Double , founder member of The Critical Psychiatry Network wrote in July to the chair of the Alliance but has still not received a reply. He has put a lot of further information on his Critical Psychiatry blog including links to responses from coll of psychs and others ref ‘Opposing Increased Coercion in the Reform of Mental Health Act.’ They made a huge mistake in increasing coercion in the past which even Tom Burns who no longer actually practices in the so called community, has apologised for, He was one of the then government advisors promoting the proposal for increased powers in ‘the community’ The college has blocked communication from it’s own members and many other legitimate communications have received rude responses stating no communiction will be responded to as highlighted on the blog previously re the issue of anti depressants .

  11. This prominent article in the New York Times was a bit of a surprise. NYTimes actually runs an article on psychiatric drug withdrawal once or twice a year but this one got a lot of attention and seems to have spawned a lot of other publications to run similar stories, which is good.

    I’m glad Surviving Antidepressants got some love. If our content gets only a few thousand people to taper more slowly than their doctors recommend, that will save a lot of nervous systems.

    It is true that nervous system destabilization by going on and off psychiatric drugs is a far more serious injury than medicine recognizes so far. However, on SurvivingAntidepressants.org, we do see people re-stabilize on reinstatement of very low amounts of the drug. They can taper off by tiny amounts some time later.

    The trick is to find the right amount. Nervous systems sensitized by adverse drug effects or withdrawal cannot tolerate “normal” dosages. Paradoxical reactions plague the treatment of withdrawal syndrome; often less is more. Depending on the drug, we suggest 1mg-5mg (and sometimes even less) to start.

    Generally, we find that a 10% reduction per month, calculated on the last dosage (the amount of decrease keeps getting smaller) is sufficient to avoid withdrawal symptoms. Occasionally, people will find they need to go off by even smaller amounts, even less than 5% per month. A minority of people are in agony with any change.

    Several years in, my severe paroxetine withdrawal syndrome did respond well to micro-doses of lamotrigine (0.5mg-1.5mg). Even so, the effect was subtle and gradual over a couple of years. The idea was to provide the nervous system with a little support, not clobber it into submission, so via neuroplasticity, it would find its way back to a normalcy.

    I was working with a psychiatrist who is a lamotrigine expert. He recognized that the hyper-sensitive nervous system needs calming. Lamotrigine, an anti-seizure drug, dampens nervous system reactivity. It does act on the calcium channel but its action is not entirely defined (as is the case with a lot of psychiatric drugs).

    Lamotrigine is also tricky to dose: Too much and it will cause a paradoxical reaction, which is why it’s widely despised — generally, it’s dosed too high. Psychiatry tends to clobber, dosage-wise, as though it’s attacking a pernicious germ.

    As a layperson, I view withdrawal syndrome as a condition of nervous system dysregulation that cannot be traced to any particular neurotransmitters. It universally affects all the neurohormonal, hormonal, and regulatory systems of the body. Other than microdoses of this or that, I’m not sure there will ever be a predictably effective drug treatment for it.

    The best way to reduce the risk of withdrawal syndrome is 1) Avoid the prescription of drugs that cause it; 2) Limit the length of time the drugs are taken to less than 6 months; 3) Taper off very gradually at the rate of individual tolerance, while monitoring closely for withdrawal symptoms.

    Withdrawal symptoms are not trivial and not always short-lived, they represent a nervous system in high distress. This is medicine’s foundational error regarding withdrawal.

  12. Re The Guardian – my newspaper of choice except for its health coverage and particularly anything to do with psychotropics. It is beyond woeful – just abysmal – spineless and mostly plain wrong – which makes me wonder about kow towing to advertisers (GSK?) or worse. I keep threatening to initiate a boycott in this house. I’m ashamed of it.
    And knitting is really interesting: I found early on that making Lino cut prints helps enormously; focusing on cutting away a design is enormously soothing and restorative – it always feels like I’m using a different part of my brain and giving all the sore bits a rest. It’s hard to describe how therapeutic it is. It would be interesting and helpful to hear of other activities that others find useful. Embroidery? Woodwork? Music as David says. My guess is it needs to be something one can almost do on autopilot – I like gardening very much but that is less soothing for some reason. Maybe too much moving about? Good bit of exercise and fresh air but less calming to literally frayed nerves. Ditto cooking – which I quite like too but makes me jangled. Brings to mind basket weaving in the old asylums – as occupational therapy. Possibly not as boring and pointless as I’d always assumed?!!
    This bloody business of how to taper, when to slow down and if to stop tapering at some point… all big unknowns. Not helped by the fact that getting liquid formulations is virtually impossible in the UK . I wish people had complete control over how they choose to manage it but we don’t on so many fronts, not least being utterly dependent on some medic to prescribe what we need along the way. We lived in the Middle East for some months back in 1980 and you just went down to a pharmacy (basically a hole in the wall) and bought what you wanted, from antibiotics to laxatives. sounds risky but was in fact astonishingly stress free. Take medics out of the whole business of controlling access to drugs and we might get somewhere ? Something I think you’ve pointed out a number of times David

    • Sally – you ask for more ways of coping ,I’m not taking psych drugs after one horrendous experience decades ago but I found photography helps depression.The activity of looking and concentrating on taking the photo is the main thing and adds a mission to a walk which can be as long or short as I feel up to. Added pleasure is looking through them later .I bought a very simple cheap camera at first to see if the interest would stick.

  13. Sally hits the nail on the head here when she says activities that help and distract need to be those that can be done on autopilot. I was briefly on valium at the age of 27, given to counter problems caused by a wrongly prescribed hormone. I remember trying to cope with the intricacies of a sewing machine back then and weeping because my mind couldn’t deal with the intricacies of it. I couldn’t even read the instruction book. But starting to embroider a tree on a piece of fabric, going from bottom right hand corner, chain stitching up the trunk, out into the branches, adding leaf after leaf like I was on autopilot, led to a collage embroidered picture which grew before my eyes and, daft though it must sound, gave me a creative daily purpose. It eventually became a picture on my second son’s bedroom wall when he arrived, covered in little animals. My time had not been wasted. That thought alone aided my recovery.

    After I lost that son so many years later, it was knitting that saved me. Suddenly all my years of struggle to help him had come to nothing. I was awake most of the night. I did not want to get out of bed. I had pictures of him on the table beside me. I wanted to curl up beside them and escape. But I started knitting. ( I’d learnt as a child when I went into hospital to have my tonsils out, and having been afraid of that beforehand, it was my first attempts at knitting a scarf for my teddy bear that distracted me from the fear of the unknown). Now, all these years later and lost in misery and shock, I couldn’t do complicated stuff, it was autopilot stuff like Sally suggests. I did triangles in various colours and I did one each morning when I woke. Then I made myself get out of bed, put it in a box, and start the day. I established a creative routine. A triangle is easy – you cast on 20 stitches and you knit simply along the row and cast one stitch off at one chosen end. It’s automatic.

    I collected these triangles in beautiful colours till I had hundreds. As I started to feel better i sewed them into throws, cushion covers and blankets. I also did French knitting, again automatic, round and round four nails stuck in a cotton reel, but using variegated rainbow wool. It held my mind, hand, eye and thoughts. It was my meditation process I guess, but at the same time it made me feel I wasn’t sitting back watching time pass and doing nothing of value. Whilst I had to hope I was getting better, I was laying up stores of something I could use/sell in the future.

    I can’t bear feeling incapacitated and beaten down and lost. Particularly by the cruel havoc that Big Pharma and its unwittingly stupid prescribers have caused. I have to be in control of my mind and body in some tangible way, however small. I still knit every day. Dare I say, it is almost addictive. But it unfailingly calms my mind.

    I can imagine the controlled process of Lino cutting, gouging out the grooves in a controlled way to create an image, can be similar, as Sally recommends. All these things draw your mind, eye and hand into a unity of process whilst, can it be, that neurotransmitters normalise again? For this reason, wanting to do something to change The System and wanting to help people currently in situations like our son was, we are completing a Creative Centre that he started, at our home, where we will teach these simple crafts and many others, in the hope that we can help anyone withdrawing from antipsychotic meds and offer understanding uplifting company and constructive help if asked for. (Today we are doing the roof). From tragedy, hopefully, will come something hopeful and helpful. So, yeah, knitting is cool, try it, it works…..

    • In reply to your comment Heather and to Sally’s above, I would suggest that you have both hit the nail on the head as regards the increase in youth anxiety/depression and worse. Our education system works wonders for youngsters who enjoy ‘being educated’ in a ‘bookish’, passive, ‘listen and learn’ way but does very little for those who find that type of education difficult. Bring back plenty of the practical activities as described by both of you and it’s my guess that there will be far less need for prescriptions of ADs and ADHD drugs for our youngsters – and many lives will be saved.

      • It sounds like something very beautiful came out of your therapeutic knitting Heather – and the photography. I have to add that part of the therapeutic process with the lino cutting for me when I started, back in 2012, was creating scurrilous and almost certainly libellous images of medical people who’d particularly annoyed me. Plus text, which I added later. Not at all beautiful – but a highly satisfactory personal method of getting my own back, privately. I christened it ‘Revenge Art’. I have a couple of the prints up in my study but have to hide them when the grandchildren come. One friend suggested I send a particularly robust (and recognisable) image to the subject – a neurologist – for him to put in his ‘patient feedback’ file. I didn’t.
        When I was in and out of psychiatric hospitals between 1998 and 2002 any attempts at occupational therapy had disappeared – I guess a funding problem. It was such a shame – many of us would have jumped at the chance to paint or mess about with clay, or sing, or take photos – anything that helped with the distress and probably the akathisia which we all had, although none of us knew. There was literally nothing to do except sit round and smoke – which was also probably an instinctive way of dampening agitation and restlessness.

        I guess, thinking about it, that knitting, embroidery and so on are non-verbal activities which don’t require logical reasoning but do need concentration.

        • Oh for the utter joy of REVENGE!
          This is wonderful stuff Sally. I think DH ought to use one of your Lino cut images as a Blog illustration. I LONG for revenge, I imagine in what ways I could deliver it; I have many alternative methods. As I drift off to sleep at night I see my victims, usually my son’s loathsome psychiatrist and sometimes the retinue of directors of the company that manufacture the acne drug which, in my view, killed my son. And GSK who made the wretched Seroxat that changed his mind forever and took away his resilience. I think it would be inappropriate to describe my methods, just like you hide your Lino cuts at certain times.

          The knitting was maybe also a way of taking myself back to the freedom of being a child, with all my life ahead of me and no inkling of the horrors to come. I sat in my little hospital bed, aged 8 (restricted parental visiting in the 1950s) and got absorbed in my knitting. I hardly noticed anything else. But reading the link Monica gave earlier on this string about the psychological and physical benefits of knitting, I have realised there is a lot more to the process that I realised.

          There is nothing offered apparently in our local hospital except colouring in books for mentally unwell patients. Just like Sally says. How tragic that OT support and inspiration is now cut so that we can fund the massive debt of the PFIs, the interest from which mostly goes to the funders, who are mostly, it seems, the big banks. I think I need to add them to my parade of mentally viewed potential victims.

          • Heather R -Show the revenge art and it will most likely be passed off as simply the work of mental illness, or ‘therapy/therapeutic’ self generated or not it maybe to some extent but it is also a graphic way of showing the massive degree of not just anger but hurt which never ends as you so painfully describe. ‘Outsider art’ has now become trendy !! But they don’t own the galleries.One of the reasons many of us hold back is the potential and reality of revenge in the reverse direction, especially if the ‘services’ which have been abusive in the first place are the only ones available if help is unavoidably needed. So many have experienced the deceit ,collusion, closing ranks , use of the the mentally ill tag to undermine the truth from being exposed , So many have exposed it and suffered the consequences .A truly shocking but no longer surprising fact is that those who are/have been at the top of hierarchies are complicit. Older people have seen it carry on all through generations of professionals who carry on the status quo and then retire with wonderful accolades praising integrity, wisdom blah blah blah,

          • To cope with ’empty nest syndrome’, a friend of mine knitted and ‘felted’ dolls to represent each member of the family ( plus their partners and offspring) and has them all sitting on a shelf. She has found this works extremely well for her. She admires them, rearranges them and chats to them and it all gave her great comfort at that hard time.
            I suggest, Heather, Sally and all other knitters, that you knit dolls of all the offending persons in your life. Tell them your deepest regrets for the way that you were treated – even rearrange them, as YOU are the one in power now that they are on YOUR shelf! Perhaps, get your pincushion out of your needlework box from time to time ….

  14. whocaresinsweden.com

    14 mins ·

    Hon fick Zoloft när min hennes man dog för 28 år sedan. Hon kan inte sluta …
    Så är det även för svenska riksdagsmän, poliser och lärare … De går på en drog som de helst skulle slippa.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/health/antidepressants-withdrawal-readers.html

    She got Zoloft when my husband died 28 years ago. She can’t stop…

    It is also for Swedish police officers, police officers and teachers… they go on a drug that they would rather not.

  15. I have just completed the 2018 Brighton Marathon this sunday supporting the Rxisk Prize to get to $100,000.

    I made an article and a vlog about it and updated the campaign supporting the rxisk prize at Run Against Castration too.

    Please share widely all material if you think it will help!!

    Article:

    https://runagainstcastration.com/2018/04/20/how-i-completed-the-2018-brighton-marathon-supporting-the-rxisk-prize/

    Vlog Completed Marathon Update:

    https://youtu.be/uAZ_sS9RudY

  16. Off topic but I have noticed today that my submission to the Scottish government petition has been removed. Not only that but going into my gmail account the sent email of my copy and two emails from the clerks have been deleted from my gmail account without my knowledge or permission. Now why has this happened and who has got google to remove it from my account on it’s servers. Very suspicious and chilling.

    • Damian, that is VERY worrying indeed. Please share when your investigation is complete so that we’ll all know what to look out for if it should happen to any of us.

    • That’s very weird Damian – are you going to follow it up? I know there is a thing where certain ‘buzz words’ are used to identify potentially unsafe e mails eg to do with authorities looking to intercept terrorist mailings etc. Have you got any other copy of your submission – there would be a date to prove you sent it ..when i deleted something on hotmail by mistake someone said there was a way of bring up deleted messages but I don’t remember how you do it .

      • My best guess why is that I criticised our esteemed elected representatives. They are elected by us in order to so called serve us but really in my opinion most of them are corporate shills. My criticism was mild and not threatening in any way. Our democracy is a sham a lie. I have seen my Mp twice about what psychotropics did to me especially lorazepam and the best I got was that she spoke to the paliamentary group on prescribed drug dependence. I am heartily sick of this my anger at what is happening is like nothing I’ve ever felt it is a disgrace of the highest proportions.

  17. Susanne, I think you make a very good point about not showing Revenge Art, and indeed about being more generally covert about these things. I think I was hasty in my suggestion, and it was unwise. I hadn’t thought it through carefully enough and I’m grateful for your input. As DH implies, many of us do feel a longing for revenge for what has been done to us and our loved ones, but in the end, karma will have its result.
    I think my dearest wish, (if we really can’t get those making policy to change tack and act with feeling and responsibility at last) would be for every single one of them, especially Gerarda and Wessley, to suffer long term akathisia with all it brings, raging terror, shaking, being unable to sleep peacefully without nightmare dreams, physical and mental damage of so many kinds, so that they would be shown exactly what thousands and thousands of those badly affected by antidepressants and other psychotropic medications, are feeling every day. I know not everyone believes in karma, but I personally do, and I will have to resign my need for revenge to that. But I love the suggestion that art can help tangibly, for some innovative people like Sally, even though it should remain their private means of coping.

    As to Damian’s latest comments – wonderful achievement and film, but yes, very concerning about the strange things which have been happening to his gmail account. We have had various strange things happening over time to our system, and have never been able to get to the bottom of it. It is, as Damian says, suspicious and chilling. It has caused us to feel very unsafe at times. I guess it partly bears out Susanne’s point, that keeping covert is possibly wise, ridiculous though it seems in a so-called free world. Don’t forget the film The Constant Gardener. We cannot afford to be complacent or to assume that we are of no consequence when we rattle cages, even though each in our own small way. There is always the Butterfly Effect.

    • As a non-believer in karma, I think invoking karma is a mug’s game. I don’t know that there can be much harm in letting people know when you feel like killing them.

      Some time ago when I had difficulties with the Health Board here and the GMC, I had very vivid fantasies of revenge and was aware of how many others here had similar fantasies. I suggested unless the powers that be got their act together some manager would end up dead. And of course we recently had the Martin Watts case where a medic stockpiled guns and planned on killing some of those who he perceived as having treated him shamefully.

      One shoot out is unlikely to be seen as much other than the action of one deranged individual. Making the powers aware there are tens of thousands of us who feel murderous in response to the violence they have inflicted on us might be much more effective. Anyone committing anything to print in public has a perfect defence – provided they are not advocating violence – which is that expressing feelings in this way is a recognized way to defuse the risk of a violent act.

      When people are scared to bring a RxISK report to a doctor, when clinical psychologists, nurses and others are scared beyond belief to talk up about the adverse effects of meds, I conclude there is a lot of violence embedded in clinical situations – they are clinical diktat situations rather than clinical care. In such situations it is those who do not have revenge fantasies who are abnormal. Telling people it is risky to mention their normal feelings is a further indication of just how violent things are beneath the veneer of what used to be a caring profession.

      D

      • Yes David I have ventilated to my GP the feelings I have regarding what I would like to do to psychiatrists. I am a placid easy going person but I can only be pushed so far. I told my GP that I would like to disable the people who have disabled me and see how they like having their life destroyed. How would they feel at having everything taken away from them with the anger, frustration and impotent rage that accompanies it.

        This situation has given me insight into how a suicide bomber must feel. How given the overwhelming odds of the enemy with the state, money, infastructure and propaganda. The frustration and anger to feel you must do something.

        Yes if one incident occurred it would be put down to the actions of a madman. Of course they are mad, I’m as mad as hell. Something has got to give. A course of action suggested by David in the past regarding a hunger strike may be something to think about and I personally would participate.

  18. David

    We will have to agree to disagree about karma.

    I’m not saying people should not express their fantasies about revenge, but at the same time, maybe it’s better for those still reliant on the medical system for their healthcare and feeling vulnerable, to do something more lasting and covert, until they can really shock the world into sitting up and listening. We have only to think of the way Katinka Blackford Newman’s book ‘the Pill that Steals Lives’ has made an impact through media exposure and here on RxISK etc. Your own books, showing the truth behind what has been going on pharmacologically have been groundbreaking. I urge people to write of their experiences, the more books that appear out there, the better. Anyone can write a book. Self publishing is cheap. Print a few copies digitally and send them to media people who have open minds. Tell your story and tell how desperate for revenge it makes you feel. Flood the market.

    These Blogs are chock full of brave people writing about what has happened to them and they all write well, because they are driven by a need to get the truth out there. OF COURSE most of them will feel like killing those who did these dastardly things to them and theirs and keep on getting away with it. But again you have to see that if you have once been branded as having been ‘mentally ill’ a lot of people will disregard what you say. This is not something someone like Robert Whitaker (the Anatomy of an Epidemic) or, with greatest respect, you yourself, have had cause to be labelled with. But others reading this will know exactly what I mean. But in a book you can give the entire picture, put it all into context, carry your audience along as they empathise with you. . The reader then GETS the whole picture, not just a snapshot. They can identify with you themselves. Your story could be their story. Self help books are very popular, but our books are not just that, they are revelations of huge injustice which is waiting to burst to the surface, and hence our delight at seeing the NYT coming out with some of it. We need to jump on the bandwagon and keep feet to the fire. I think the pen is mightier than the sword, and we can all tell it how it is. The very best revenge of all.

    • Heather

      The system depends on you and others to be Nice. That is to bottle up your thoughts of revenge and to let these thoughts kill you early rather than to voice them and effect change.

      Writing a book will increase the sales of drugs. Your book about Accutane might sell 100 copies. Roche will distribute 100,000 copies for free. Katinka’s book is wonderful but unless she takes and wins a legal action she will likely only have increased sales of SSRIs. Companies depend on controversy to sell drugs. The only thing you and other nice people have to derail this is to voice the way the situation makes you feel.

      At the moment you are caught in a game of cricket – the English idea of fair play – 11 against 1. You have to become a 100,000 and the only way to do that is to get some of the several millions to let the bureaucracy/establishment know how you are feeling.

      David

      • David

        I am not Nice. After Olly died we battled NHS Trusts, NHS Locality Forums, we protested outside Roche, we battled them inside around their boardroom table, ably supported by other parents. We’ve worked with TV, Radio, Press. We’ve collectively run two information websites and Facebooks. We even battled the GMC – what a joke that was. We’ve told every man jack of them how furious we are. All of us. We have spread information to every useful outlet we can think of. I know we have saved some lives because other families tell us we have. We’ve worked with Government, got Debates, got them to make the MHRA to re-visit safety of these drugs, but like Susanne says, persistence is the only way to change The System, and Rome wasn’t built in a day. It’s taking time but it’s working and we’re definitely winning.

        I don’t swallow down and harbour revenge which can kill me, nor does Annie. I try to be pro-active rather than reactive. I feel our cause is just, and I will carry on systematically spreading the word till I die. I have written my son’s rather boringly tragic tale endless times on these Blogs and on countless other website blogs too, voicing my fury, so no one can be any doubt how wild what happened to him makes me feel.

        But I also remember Olly’s intelligent and measured way of doing things, and I prefer to run with that, as what I do I do mostly for him and others like him. He was, as Annie recalls, ‘very nice’ but no, Annie, not soft, he was tough as old boots, AND kind (one can be both) but he was also steely and driven and he set his eyes on what he needed to achieve, and he went for it and he mostly got there. He had a brilliant mind. If he were here now he’d be tackling this problem by thinking outside of the box, and that’s what I’m trying to do. And not wishing to blow my own trumpet here but in my own defence, as a prize winning author since 1984, (albeit in a different genre), I have sold millions of my books with mainstream publishers, so I don’t think I’d be too content this time round with selling just 100….

        Sure, we could try suing Roche, , as have countless others before us, and either been bought off after years of legal hassle, or financially ruined in the process, but what resources I have I want to use to help people like Olly, not pay a load of uninterested lawyers. And by the way, my book is not about Accutane, although it does play a small part. It is far far more than that, and well researched over the last 5 years. It is about people and lives and Medicine, its changed attitudes over the last few decades, and the havoc it has wreaked on those who trust it. It’s about how creatively together we can improve things. It’s about changing The System.

        So, how else do you suggest I get the 100,000 to know how I’m feeling?

        I’m with Annie when she says ‘ I don’t want to be wound up with other people’s aggression’. She’s dead right, we do have some more thinking to do. And Susanne makes a lot of good points too. When I was trying to prevent my son’s death in the summer of 2012, as a concerned relative the more I raised hell, wept, protested, begged, made a fuss, tried to get some action, the worse the psychiatrists took it out on him and drove him to his end. If I’d been more covert and clever, he might be here spearheading this for us now.

        This whole thing is a filthy business, and as Tim often terms it in the excellent and well researched comments he makes on this Blog, its the Fourth Reich. Collectively we are chipping away at it, using all the intelligence and skills we have. If you have any better ideas about what else we can do, please don’t hesitate to spell them out.

    • Heather – To add a quick apology to you for forgetting to thank you for responding to my comment so thoughtfully. You are indeed a ‘nice person’. Also I was too quick to dismiss your belief in Karma as I am too impatient to wait for it! But that was a misunderstanding or ignorance on my part it seems as you are obviously not hanging around passively for Karma to happen but are living a very activist life. Ultimately we need change not revenge – bringing people to book is a call for justice. If /when things do change they will just become redundant and then there will be a spate of academic books about the long period of shame in the mental ‘health’ professions. Ok I’ll shut up now.!

  19. Revenge has become interesting..

    What some of us have tried to do is to Catch Them Oot …

    When they make ridiculous assumptions, coming back with some evidence of how they are Just Plain Wrong or Leading Us Up the Garden Path..

    ‘Revenge’ is perhaps not quite the right word.

    It implies a mode of thought, that although one has done harm to another and got away with it, exacting this powerful expression seems rather aggressive, and it is aggression that we have to get away from.

    Although we accepted aggression from others, it was the medication which could have made us aggressive.

    Heather, you paint a lovely picture of Ollie as soft, kind, very nice, and, you did mention that Ollie said once that he would like to kill them.

    I have never had thoughts like these. I don’t have an ounce of aggression in my make up, until Seroxat came along, and even then, I was always extraordinarily polite to the medical fraternity.

    My GP was extremely aggressive from the moment she dropped me from the drug, and, even with out medication being involved, she really took the biscuit for quite vicious remarks and three entirely damning referrals which shredded our unit to the point of destruction.

    Would I like to kill them.

    No.

    I would like a national embarrassment, a public shaming, backed up with Data and Evidence.
    That is how my mind works.

    All these twitter blockings that are going on, proves revenge doesn’t work when people start pushing too hard.

    The ‘Enemy’ just gets fed up and clams up completely and so it backfires, even less dialogue..

    It becomes them and us and then war breaks out.

    Some people on twitter are extremely rude and I don’t really want to be a part of that.

    I don’t want to be collectively involved in other peoples aggression even though I can see where they are coming from..

    I also don’t want to be wound up by other people’s aggression.

    This doesn’t mean I am meek and feeble, I would just rather both sides, if that is what it has become, thought about tactics and strategy before jumping in head first, leading to alienation.

    Being blocked on twitter by a Medical Professional means you have got their back up and how does that help.

    I made a few strident criticisms which got me nowhere, these medicals can write long letters and send emails and make telephone calls with the Brush Off coming out Loud and Clear ..

    Frustration sets in, big time, as I did everything I could as an individual and the more I did it, the worse it got in return..

    Its enough to drive you bonkers reading the drivel coming from senior British Psychiatrists and I just feel embarrassed that these are the people supposedly in control of me and you…

    We have some more thinking to do ..

    • Annie, your thoughts on this are very well considered and interesting.

      I just wanted to clarify one point – when Olly told me ‘he wanted to kill them’ he was not talking about the doctors nor Big Pharma, because as a scientist he trusted both; he wouldn’t have believed in Karma, not for a moment, so he’d be with DH there. The ‘them’ he wanted to kill were the group of well healed and loathsome bullying lads who picked on him every day because his acne apparently made him look ugly. They made his life a living hell at school. He still wanted to kill them even when he was 26, because he still got PTSD flashbacks when under stress, of what they put him through. And as a bad acne sufferer, he was not unique in that experience.

      And this is where the rot begins for young people. Of COURSE they want RoAccutane isotretinoin, for with it comes the promise that they will get perfect skin again. So the bullying may end. ‘They will look acceptable.’ And this is why prescriptions have risen in the last few years by 680% as self image has become all consuming, especially on social media. Until we can get dermatologists, GPs and most of all, really stupid psychiatrists to grasp this fact, instead of branding them body dysmorphic, we will not stop the enticing nature of this drug. I’ve recently learnt, by being unwell myself, that the liver is key in keeping us healthy and keeping skin clear. If only we could get kids to follow a careful diet and drink plenty of water daily, ie ‘love their livers’, we could show them that they don’t need to play Russian roulette with their future happiness both physical and mental. RoAccutane isotretinoin is a lethal risk they don’t need to take.

  20. Heather R and David – I don’t honestly believe in Karma rather that persistence will more likely change things .although not possibly in everybody’s lifetime. Please Don’t misinterpret my views though-I haven’t suggested people don’t speak out – i have -but for many there is a need to take care Of course vengeful thoughts are normal but can be skewed by those with an agenda,For many it ‘is risky to reveal feelings of revenge. They can and have been twisted as court cases describe and many others not brought to light will have had their feelings documented on medical files which colour how they are treated – including with covert threats of ‘treatment’ .Some have to keep quiet when they have families to look after and fears of intrusion by social services. Print stuff and we don’t all have lawyers to defend us – Even on this blog people are wise to write anonymously if they feel vulnerable. It is still not possible to name those who have abused and harmed those who write on blogs here and elsewhere . I am not suggesting that we act ‘covertly’ but to make considered decisions. I have been scared and isolated by whistleblowing myself – I had none of the support you had from friends and colleagues David – but even they will not speak openly always. I carried on nevertheless and won to some extent for others as well as myself – but never underestimate the lengths those who have been exposed will go to to undermine you , It has been wonderful to come across some decent and moral people nevertheless whose support – usually behind the scenes though – I will always be grateful for. I agree the underbelly of medicine contains much violence – but I can only hope that they are exposed as what they are and what they stand for and are replaced by decent human beings one day. Right now it’s not happening. To end on maybe a surprising note – I did send paintings to express what I felt about some of them years ago – I couldn’t care less if they were offended. And yes it was risky.

  21. I know who I am.
    I know what I have been dealing with.
    Those who have wronged me, know who they are.
    You can undermine me however, people who know the TRUTH, will stand by me.
    I decided a long time ago that I would not deal with any unhealthy people or organizations, that do not care.
    Have pity on those who do not know any better.

  22. Hi Damian – It is very ‘interesting’ to hear that yet another submission has been blocked – it is becoming more common we are hearing more about them via bloggers.what a farce – wev’e all seen the way they behave in parliament and elsewhere – are they are such sensitive flowers they can’t listen to an angry criticism!! It’s a strategy used to disempower of course -it’s one less submission on the record. It could happen even more easily in days when paper work was more common – no record unless people remebered to make copies. files getting ‘lost’etc I have been banned from writing to a journal because I criticised the views of someone who is lauded as the font of all wisdom…just ring a call centre to complain – say you’re damn angry about something and they will threaten to cut us off with ‘we don’t allow people to swear at us’, same strategy. I haven’t heard of David’s idea of a hunger strike. Sorry But again I would be cautious myself although obviously you decide otherwise. anybody with or has had a mental illness tag has the potential for being dubbed incapable of making a reasonable decision and at worst force fed – as you say if something went badly wrong the media would have a story which can just as likely focus on the mentally ill need more surveillance – (the mental health act is in the process of being updated) – the media loves a juicy story few are ready to be analytical as well. I think It’s great that some people have decent medics they can trust but I would bear in mind that the one who can be trusted may not always be there or when push comes to shove – be willing to speak out in support of a person’s right to make a decision.When an action like hunger strikes puts the profession in such a bad light they could feel intimidated by colleagues and the hierarchies.. I’m trying to make a wider point as well – however much the colleges claim to be trying to combat stigma it’s very useful to them to have people labelled as mentally ill and needing ‘treatment’ when dissent or opposition is growing. Far fetched? How many are being silenced already by trustingly taking toxic meds? How much have the colleges ramped up trying to bring opposition and criticism into disrepute..Apparently it was Theresa May prime minister of UK who has appointed Simon Wessly to chair the next commission to update the mental health act. Her reputation on Human Rights is apalling. His deceit about meds is a national disgrace. I’ve wandered off a bit but I agree your experience is worrying when you have been barred from excercising a democratic right and google gets. involved. The royal free hospital actually sold thousands of people’s medical records to google a while ago without their knowledge or consent – a FOI revealed this to the fury of the local population – too late.. job done…

  23. David – you say there isn’t much harm telling people who have harmed you (and your family, friends – the ripples are pretty wide) that you feel like killing them as a consequence. It’s a nice thought. However, for any of us who’ve been banged up, forcibly restrained and medicated it’s a pipe dream. A dangerous game. No one who has ever been sectioned forgets the fear and the horror. I lived for years fearing the knock on the door of police, doctors, stupid nurses covering their backs, long long after any danger of that happening had passed. But you never forget it. With respect too – as a doctor, one of the brethren, however renegade you might be – you are never going to get the same response from a fellow doctor if and when you sit in front of them as a patient as we do. I doubt you have ‘personality disorder’ running through your medical notes like a black stain – albeit in my case a rogue diagnosis by a silly junior psychiatrist which was rapidly overtaken by other diagnoses (bi-polar disorder anyone?). Being openly and aggressively angry is not an option for me. If I told my GP that I felt like murdering the psychiatrists who damaged me his hand would be fumbling for the panic button before I’d finished the sentence. A far bigger problem is knowing what to do with all the simmering rage in a way that doesn’t rebound on us or our families. I fantasise about getting revenge, but in my case it has to be private – hence my revenge prints. You imply that we have nothing to lose but I refuse to blow all the hard work I’ve had to do – along probably with many many people on here – rebuilding my sense of self as a worthwhile person, someone who isn’t just defined as a psychiatric patient and by what I did. I had to develop a hard shell to face the world, ignore passing comments by neighbours, pretend I don’t care when a pharmacist suddenly finds he can’t take blood when he catches sight of the scars on my arms and rushes out. As for slowly rebuilding a relationship with your kids, I cannot describe how hard and exhausting and unbearably painful that is. You have no idea how much courage all that takes. You may think that nothing ever happens if all of us come over weedy at the thought of openly expressing our anger, but we are all brave, every single day, in a magnificent way that cannot be understood unless you’ve been on the other side of the fence.

    Being vulnerable isn’t a choice – it’s a prison, not of our making. Everyone has different ways of chipping away at the walls.

  24. Sadly, it has become ‘trendy’ to defame ones mental integrity, instead of admitting there is are major problems within our society.
    We all know what happens when someone speaks the TRUTH?
    Who do we have to thank for all the CRAP they put us through?
    Whistle-blowers are not the problem.
    It is the ones who lie and do not admit their own failures who are in need of help.
    I would associate with a whistle-blowers, any day.
    At least one knows they have a moral compass.
    As for the hungry power mongrels who love playing futile games, there is a universal law that sets things straight ~ this I believe.

  25. Well the pitiful thing is when you need them again. You’re extra nice because you really want to shed the difficult patient identity. So when you say you’re worried about your kidney and they laugh and tell you you’re constipated, you tend to go along. Afterall, you’re not the doctor. When your “constipation” turns into “gastritis” you politely fill the prilosec script but do you take it? Hell no. When your “constipation” turns into “ibs” or some shit, you politely accept the rx for linzess but know better than to swallow that. The doctor, who is literally excited to prescribe linzess, patronizingly orders a test to rule out anything although he’s sure there’s nothing. When he later tells you “bilateral obstruction and two swollen kidneys,” what can you say besides wtf? Still, the following Monday you try twice to thank the urologist for fitting you into her schedule, but she’s just interrupts you twice. Meanwhile she tells you you’ve already had this for a long time so you can wait 3 more weeks for another diagnostic test. But no worries because you can also have all the opioids you need (in an opioid ravaged state), which quells both your pain and your nightmare fantasies of ending up hooked to a dialysis machine.

  26. Why would anyone who was poorly mal treated be in a rush to rely on any medico? ~ You have go to be joking!
    I would rather die than end up with some Nazi control freaks.
    Many of you did well, to not heal with your nonsense medicine because you know the tools you have are useless and would of finished me off.
    One good thing you did was to not give me anymore pills because you would have been visiting me at my grave.
    Medicine is about caring and healing.
    I don’t see much of that going on today.
    I see early retirements, plenty of investments, lots of money rewards/incentives from big pharma and many enjoying a life of luxury whilst many of your patients have been ruined by the drugs you prescribe.
    Unless, you have lived through bad medicine, I suggest you refrain from judging.
    What I have lived through, is enough to make any grown man cry.
    All I see is some egotistical individuals believing they are Gods and can ruin people’s lives with the flick of a pen, an email, untrue labels, unnecessary pills and untrue diagnosis. Are you for real? We can’t even open our mouths without too many sensitive ones going around the bend.
    Please don’t feel offended by our questioning.
    If you don’t feel comfortable, I can’t change the way you feel.
    The EGO is just interested in how much studies you did to get where you are today:
    For example, the following demonstrates how some ‘narrow minded’ individuals think:
    I studied x amount of years.
    Don’t question me because you know nothing.
    I am the doctor. Who are you to question what I say?
    Perhaps the patients who have lived through HELL can teach you something however, at times your heads are bigger than the door. You don’t care!
    Perhaps we can see through the thin veil of deceit.
    What chance do innocent people have when you are setting people up for failure?
    I don’t need anyone to stuff up my life, again.
    The damage you cause to many people, is inexcusable.
    I had to learn very quickly what I had to do to survive.
    I don’t need to sound my trumpet.

  27. If we all gave 100% of our energies to the Rxisk prize campaign, so that the 100 000 dollars became a reality and that, in turn, was presented to a successful researcher ( individual or group) who successfully brought forward a workable cure for all this suffering – wouldn’t that, in itself, give us all a sense of relief and release from our pent up frustration?
    I realise that there are those among us who, due to their suffering, do not have the energy to push endlessly for a successful end to the campaign – but possibly do know of someone who they could approach in an attempt to rekindle the interest in it?
    There are also those of us who are not sufferers but have witnessed the suffering – is there anything further that we could be doing to attract more dollars to the cause?
    Maybe it’s time for a rethink. We are all in this together; we are all suffering in our differing ways; we are all aiming for the same thing – we want to be able to turn round to the ones who have doubted and ridiculed us and say “We told you so – now here’s the proof”. What better way of doing this than having the cure for sexual dysfunction to throw in their faces? This is a cause for which we all need to work together to have a real chance of success in its delivery. That will only come if we keep hammering away – I feel that we’ve lost momentum lately which is a great pity. Let’s return our energies, once again, and see where the collective attempts can lead us.

  28. I def have a revenge problem that is haunting, I don’t feel like I can ever be around a doctor for the rest of my life , or his/her life will be in grave danger.

    Its tough to bottle up such difficult feelings , the only way for me is to avoid the topic in general. Doing whatever , watching ever you have to do , to completely avoid it. Would I cheer if someone went into a CAMH center and dropped a bomb, No I probably wouldn’t . but I would understand why it happened? of course and I wouldn’t vilify the bomber.

    I have always felt in most cases not all cases, because I know in some their is intent. But these moron doctors who prescribe these poisons really dont know how bad it is. I know a GP who prescribed all 3 of his daughters SSRI and SNRI drugs. I know for a fact if he knew what we knew , he would never do this. So as much as Id like to strangle my doctor I know she didn’t do it on purpose. did she treat me terribly afterwards , yes yes she did. For that Id like to punch her in the face , but kill her no.

    Perhaps those who write books ,or do things like that , even though they don’t get the public attention they want , I think they get validation in their own life. Sometimes just having the people around you , understand what exactly happened to you , the horrible ordeal you went through , is enough to go on.Somehow if its written in a book or something like that your experience becomes more concrete.

    I know one of the biggest problems in WD , is being believed by your peers , it doesn’t matter how severe you symptoms are , bed ridden etc.. most people will just think you are depressed and it doesn’t matter what you say. That hardship is almost as hard as the symptoms the drug produces. Being isolated like that is one of the hardest things to deal with.

    I truly believe the only way for revenge is if it becomes unequivocally undeniable how harmful the drugs are. The butchers , I mean doctors will have to think back of all the lives they have taken and live with that guilt. That guilt might rival the harm done to those affected by P-drugs.

    The drug companies however , we cannot get revenge on them , they know , they dont care and they will have to answer to g-d one day.

  29. But I can understand anyone who has been harmed or has had a loved one harmed or killed , if they were to do something , I would totally understand. These doctors even though I am the belief they dont know the harms , they have such an arrogance that some of them really have it coming. They are reckless deplorable individuals.

  30. I so agree with Stitch’s comment about those who write books getting validation in their own lives. I am maybe biased because my life’s work has been writing and illustration, but these days when I am working amongst people who have suffered so badly and seemingly have no outlet for their justifiable fury, to write a book seems a wonderful think to do.

    Since first finding RXISK, when a friend told me I could pre-order Katinka’s ‘ The Pill that Steals Lives’ there, I have bought and read many other books by those who contribute to these Blogs, like Kristina who wrote Pauline’s story, and Bob Fiddaman’s excellent book which helped me to see that our experiences with the MHRA had echoed his.

    C.S. Lewis once said ‘we write to know that we are not alone’. At the beginning of this string if we read the NYT groundbreaking article, we can see that we are part of a parallel universe of maligned and damaged people, and I still maintain, (without in any way wanting to cross swords with DH) that the writing and promotion of our books of our stories, is much more likely to stop others swallowing SSRIs, and thus lessening drug sales, than enabling Big Pharma to promote them. I know, having read so many accounts, that I would never ever take them, or suggest their use to anyone. There are thousands of us who feel the same. If patients refuse to take them, prescriptions will go down, and over time, the drugs less in demand will affect profits. I heard on Radio 4’s stock market report today that poor GSK are reporting their profits but are considered by investors to be in the doldrums and not a good investment. Whoopee, if that’s correct. They have ‘dallied with the cancer market’ and not done well, and now have rather lost their way….apparently.

    Also, look at how many books written first hand by sufferers DO get into the headlines. The Daily Mail is only too delighted to showcase them.

    Mary rightly reminds us about getting behind the RxISK Prize effort to raise funds to find a cure for sexual dysfunction. How would it be if we had a RxISK Reading List, promoting books by individuals who self publish their stories to further raise awareness and thus give hope and encouragement to others. ‘To know that they are not alone’. Maybe each book could donate in return a percentage of their royalties to the RxISK causes? The pen has always, in the end, been more lastingly mighty that the sword. These books will be a tribute to us all, and a historical record of what was allowed to happen in our time, against our wishes.

  31. But Stitch many of them do know and still prescribe without telling people of the risks so that they can look out for the signs of damage themselves . One drug which has been banned now is Stelazine although I think it has morphed into another similar drug.It was prescribed as a life long prescription to uninformed people even though it was well known that it would most likely cause irreversible TD. Often when asked for information people were fobbed off with ‘it will make you feel better- think of it as how diabetes has to be treated life long with a drug which saves lives’.One of the worst symptoms was like a thump at the bottom of the spine and then the terrifying ‘restlessness’ which doesn’t do justice to describing the symptoms. Instead of stopping the drug another one would be added to deal with although it just masked it. To keep people on the drug when reluctant it would be changed from tablets to depot injections. One person was admitted to a psych unit after disclosing that she wasn’t taking drugs any longer. The drugs are terribly toxic and no info at all/leaflets from drug companies were given when injections were used. Ignorance of what they prescribe is no excuse – ignorance coupled with arrogance is a dangerous combination. The psychosomatic tag was used covertly in one area by some GPs with links to psychs with an interest in the topic.so that no possibility of getting appropriate treatment was possible as referral letters undermined and ridiculed – after three years and insistence on another hospital referral a serious operation was carried out for one lady. Did anybody even apologise ? You know the answer, When a complaint was just a possibility the GPs who colluded in the mess sent a letter to de- register off their list. All those involved climbed the disgusting greasy pole to a rewarding career in the limelight.. So lots of us are having a rant just now – the revenge comments has touched a nerve. I have not gone near the NHS for almost 15 years except to get stitches at A and E for a gashed shin – I have been able to recover from things I should have been able to get help for if I had not experienced such shocking behaviour towards very vulnerable fellow human beings over and over again – Others won’t be able to avoid them. This as so many point out is not just specific to the physical treatments but the contemptible way so many medics behave I have one serious problem now which would not have been taken seriously unless I could have got a diagnosis outside the NHS. But that is all the contact I intend to have with any medic. I do sympathise with what Mary says though – the concentration on raising funds has dwindled, People still need to get tested . I have run out of ideas myself.

  32. How can one possibly practice medicine with all this political bs, corruption or continuous lack of integrity by drug companies?
    A bullying culture does not help either.
    We need professionals to stand up to these bullies and speak up and say enough is enough, before it is too late.
    Doctors working together = CHANGES
    If we let this continue it will infiltrate to other areas of life.
    It is already happening and we should be mindful that what happened to many can happen to anyone.
    This is why we are witnessing so much lack of empathy and care.
    It can be the persons personality,yes however, I strongly believe that some drugs are having an adverse effect on people’s behaviour.

    • Taking on board Susanne’s, Anon’s and Stitch’s point about the damage these drugs are doing to people who are unaware of it till too late, I’d like to add this;
      when I discuss and promote RxISK to people I meet, some of them are already on SSRIs and or other psychotropic meds and mostly they shy away from discussion. Either they are scared to face any concerns about the drugs or they have been cushioned by them into an insulating bubble and they don’t think objectively about self preservation any more, which is both frustrating and terrifying to watch. Sometimes they aggressively defend the drugs and their doctors, along the lines of ,”well, my doctor wouldn’t give me these treatments unless they were pretty safe and well researched, would they?”

      Then there are the others, the Carers of people made ill by the drugs, to whom it is perfectly obvious what changes those medications have made to their loved ones, but they often can’t get through to the prescribers what damaging changes have taken place, and how to get them back to being as well as possible. The cared-for person may be lost by then in a kind of “ oh, thanks for trying but what do I matter, leave it, you’ll only annoy the doctor, he knows best, I am at fault, there’s no hope for me, without these medications I’d be worse, so back off and leave me to my hopeless fate” etc. That’s what happened to my son, whose cocktail of Olanzapine and Sertraline, even though those two had been taken for a comparatively short time (following on erratic prescribing and sudden stopping of several others, tapering never mentioned, safety never mentioned). Side effects he reported were dismissed by the Mental Health professional Team as being in his imagination and caused by his ‘anxiety’! He ended up with such voids in his thinking that he couldn’t remember where or who he was for short periods, so he thought he was literally going mad, and better to die than to live endlessly like this, according to his farewell letter, which was lucid, reasoned, and heartbreaking.

      The people who DO take notice of warnings gleaned from articles like the NYT one featured by DH on this post are the ones who haven’t yet swallowed the stuff, but who may be going through tough times and are considering going to the doctor for help. These people can still think clearly enough to evaluate risks and benefits. We need them to refuse medications unless absolutely vital to save life, and then the growing army of those people will try to get the message through to the others somehow.

      Books written by people like those who engage with RxISK, simply explaining the lived experience of those who’ve been damaged, written honestly and from the heart, can be read at leisure, and even those people lost in their bubble of enforced complacency, may begin to see that yes, what is happening to them HAS happened to others, and by determined research and encouragement from contributors to Blogs like this, they can make improvements to their situation, and they will be empowered by hope and knowledge. They can take a selection of these books to their doctor and say, “ have you read this, are you aware of these problems with this drug, and if not, why not? How can you give me this with impunity when thousands are reporting how it has ruined their lives!”

      As to ‘how do we set about self publishing affordably’ I guess it would be inappropriate to suggest names of companies here, but if anyone wants details, go to the Facebook page of Olly’s Friendship Foundation on Monday 30 April, where there’ll be a post on creativity using knitting, inspired by what Monica has written earlier on this post, and also writing and self publishing ideas, along with a picture of mindful and warm productive woolly creations. Let’s get busy folks and use our revenge to get meaningful results.

  33. Published in Thebmj 25 April – ‘Anticholinergenic Drugs and Dementia’. This was also picked up in confusing versions on the media but the message is stark enough – eg ITV Report 25 April ‘Link between Antidepressants and Dementia’ (including other adverse effects) – 30% greater risk after taking them for more than a year. The advice to doctors is – be cautious !!

  34. In addition – breaking news – just heard on BBC2’s this morning at 11 am on the Victoria Derbyshire programme that a 300,000 strong study by a psychiatrist funded by the Alzheimer’s Society has raised alarm about the possibility of anticholigernetic drugs causing dementia, and this study is now published in the BMJ. The head of the GP body also interviewed said it isn’t proven that they cause it and some folk may have been incubating it anyway….!. The psychiatrist said there are lots of safer alternatives so patients should be informed and ask for them. I note that anit psychotics like Olanzapine are listed, along with drugs for bladder problems. It was all discussed in a typically laid back way, no drugs were actually named, but Google gives a comprehensive list. Over to the experts on RxISK now and apologies for such a snapshot view, but I was horrified and yet not surprised, in the light of what wee e all been saying for ages…..

  35. Just read a piece on whilst googling around sorry no refs. ‘NICE Delays Depression Guidelines as Not Fit For Purpose’ 24th April. following criticism by experts. Wasn’t it ‘experts’ who drew them up then?

    • In this case its Drs Wessely and Gerrada trying to tell NICE that far more people should be having antidepressants.

      D

  36. It was felt that there ‘clearly is a problem.’

    The Scottish Petitions Committee concluded their discussions on Petition 1651 which was shown live this morning.

    Apparently, this was the largest of any petition received.

    A Committee Member suggested that the views of gps on negative impact on patients should be sought.

    That gps should be ‘gauged.” He didn’t say Engaged, he said Gauged ..

    Dr. Terry Lynch was mentioned.

    The Committee suggested liaison with National Health England re their investigation, the BMA, the 24-hour helpline.. and that was that.

    Brief, pertinent and to the point ..

  37. …..and the latest suggestion in the world of education? – that every primary school should have an on-site counsellor (or, better still, a ‘shrink’ – media’s term, not mine!) to deal with the increasing problems that younger and younger children seem to have these days. Children as young as five are self harming? Who brings out these ideas? They obviously don’t know much about young children! Haven’t they ever seen a two year old in a tantrum – who can bang their heads with great ferocity against any available door or wall! From their tantrums, they learn. From being raised in households where there is time to establish and keep rules, children learn. From having boundaries against which to grumble and parents who show the consequences of rule-breaking, children learn.
    From being ‘tested’ as soon as they can utter a few words and forever being told to reach the next step on their way to achieving the ‘expected standard’ for their school – children are left feeling inadequate from their very early introduction to our ‘education’ system. Let children be children and learn about the world through valuable play situations and the tension can be released.
    Counsellors and psychologists DO have their place in the world of education – input from educational psychologists is an invaluable form of support for teachers and parents. However, making out that there is a need for regular input in each school is, again, doing away with the ability of an individual to slowly change their behaviour and ability to conform to an accepted standard without outside intervention. What better way to make even more children into sad cases waiting for an appointment and support? I guess the next step would be a pharmacy at Reception for the drugs needed by these ‘maladjusted’ youngsters!

    • Mary, I’m aware that we are going off topic a bit here, but just briefly, to link with your point about what’s happening in schools to our children’s psyche, also featured on the Victoria Derbyshire BBC2 programme between 10 and 11 am was a mother whose 10 year old son was raped by a school friend, aged 9, from the same primary school. After she spoke, many parents rang or emailed into the tv station applauding her for her bravery in telling us about this, and saying the same thing had happened to their girls and boys, and not knowing what to do about it. An expert brought onto the programme about Abuse said often the children who did this had been abused themselves at home, but this of course did not apply to all. The school, when approached, advised the parent in question to inform the police. The police said they can do nothing as the perpetrating boy is under 10. The abused boy has left his school, various clubs, is terrified of seeing the other boy, who threatened him with dire consequences if he told anyone.

      So, Mary, yes, I do wonder what on earth is happening to our children, because maybe of what is happening generally to society. Are parents just not engaging with their young as they should be? Are children, like you say, often not being able to be children any more? Could it even be that so many parents have become less aware because they are themselves on SSRIs to help them cope with the stress and pace of life?

  38. HeraldScotland/ScottishPPPC

    Experts ‘in denial’ over withdrawal harm from prescription pills, says MSP Michelle Ballantyne

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/16187177.Experts__in_denial__over_prescription_pill_harm__says_MSP/?ref=twtrec

    ANYONE who says patients are not being harmed by withdrawal from prescription pills such as antidepressants is “in denial”, an MSP has said.

    Michelle Ballantyne, a former nurse and Conservative MSP for South Scotland, said she found it “very troubling” that there appeared to be a tendency to downplay or dismiss the problem.

    Read more: Number of patients harmed by prescription pills ‘too difficult to say’

    Speaking during a meeting on the Scottish Parliament’s Public Petitions Committee, Ms Ballantyne referred to a previous evidence session in January when the Scottish Government’s own psychiatrist adviser, Dr John Mitchell, said the number of people suffering severe and life-limiting side effects was “very rare”. However, he also admitted there is no data on the issue.

    Ms Ballantyne, who has also headed up a regional drug and alcohol rehabilitation service, said: “I felt there was an element of saying ‘there isn’t really a problem here’. But there clearly is a problem, and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.”

    It comes after the committee was inundated with around 120 responses to a petition calling for a dedicated helpline for people who have been left with permanent painful and disabling side effects after tapering off prescription medications such as antidepressants, painkillers and benzodiazepines, commonly used as sleeping pills.

    Read more: Royal College of Psychiatrists criticised for ‘dangerous and misleading’ claims about antidepressant withdrawal

    Committee chair Johann Lamont said it was one of the largest responses she had ever seen to a Scottish Parliament petition. The committee voted to seek additional evidence from GPs.

    Graeme Dey, SNP MSP for Angus South, said: “They’re prescribing these drugs, they should be seeing any negative impact they’re having over the long-term. It’s really important to understand what they’re encountering in their surgeries the length and breadth of Scotland.”

    More than 100 patients shared harrowing personal accounts of being left with pain, anxiety, suicidal thoughts or sensory disturbances years after stopping treatment.

    In his submission, Dr Des Spence, a Glasgow-based GP who has written extensively on antidepressants, said the idea that depression was caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain was “a simple myth, with no proven biological basis”.

    He said pharmaceutical companies in the 1990s had seen mental illness as “simple business” because these were life-long, chronic diseases, and got doctors onside by buying them dinners, flying them around the world to conferences and putting them up in luxury five-star hotels.

    When patients struggled to come off antidepressants, Dr Spence said “financially conflicted” medics simply encouraged them to “carry on taking antidepressants for years and even decades”.

    He added: “Today history is repeating itself with pain killers. The industry realised that pain was common and chronic. It was big business opportunity. They peddled the idea that strong opioid painkillers were ‘non addictive’ if used ‘therapeutically’.”

    The petition was set up by Marion Brown, a psychotherapist from Helensburgh who was alarmed at the number of people she was encountering who appeared to have being harmed despite taking pharmaceuticals as prescribed, sometimes for decades.

    She was concerned that existing alcohol and drug rehabilitation services are focused on treating people hooked on illicit substances.

    Her petition has been backed by psychiatrists, mental health charities, the BMA and MPs on Westminster’s All-Party Parliamentary Group for Prescribed Drug Dependence, who warned that medics are too often “unaware of the severity and duration of withdrawal symptoms”.

    The BMA said inappropriate prescribing of psychoactive drugs was “leading to a range of health and social harms”.

    In January, Public Health England launched a year-long review to determine the scale prescription pill dependence and withdrawal symptoms, particularly in relation to antidepressants, sedatives, gabapentinoids, and opioid painkillers.

    recovery&renewal Retweeted

    John Read‏ @ReadReadj 1h
    Replying to @recover2renew @HMcArdleHT and 9 others

    Major breakthrough in Scottish Parliament. ‘Those still saying there is no problem are in denial’ This includes the Royal College of Psychiatry, who still won’t retract their false statement in The Times or provide any evidence to support it.

  39. Congratulations to Marion and all who worked so hard on the petition resulting in a major news story in Scotland. Thanks Annie for the link to the Herald. There is opportunity to make comments to the article and they don’t seem to be editing the outrage expressed by those of us who have commented so far or even deleted a mention of the Rxisk and DH blogs which hopefully more readers of the Herald will turn to for evidence.. A real point of anger is that the strategy is to delay for another year while collecting ‘evidence’ from GPs – they are the main especially repeat prescribers , they have not been reporting adverse effects so far as they are obliged to do. Welsh politicians are embroiled in – politicking right now – let’s hope they will respond soon to the Welsh petition and will take more action than waiting a year for GPs unreliable evidence’.

  40. EARTH without ART is just EH ..

    https://twitter.com/jsbamrah/status/989436306693468160

    https://twitter.com/wendyburn/status/989624156940652545

    Wendy Burn‏ @wendyburn 12h

    Lovely evening at @rcpsych with unveiling of @WesselyS portrait. The artist has caught him perfectly.

    The ‘artist’ has ‘caught him’ perfectly ..

    If you don’t get the eyes right, you lose it, any art critic will explain that; adept at shirts and trousers, does not a great artist, make ..

    RoyalSocietyMedicine‏ @RoySocMed

    We are thrilled to announce our new podcast series! Listen to @WesselyS and @ClareGerada first episode is on antidepressants, antibiotics and the gender pay gap #RSMPodcast #RSMHealthMatters http://ow.ly/qeGs30jHcWF

    RSM Health Matters Podcast: Episode 1 – Antidepressants, Antibiotics and The Gender Pay Gap

    https://videos.rsm.ac.uk/podcasts?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=rsmvideos_social&utm_content=270418

    Kaji Sritharan, Professor Sir Simon Wessely, Professor Clare Gerada

    Date: 26th April 2018

    Well .. ?

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