How on earth could an antidepressant drug drive someone to murder? In the past two columns RxISK has heard from two people who know they can. In The Man Who Thought He Was A Monster, Steindor Erlingsson shared his own story of being tormented with urges to stab his wife and young children while on antidepressants. These were utterly alien thoughts, which horrified him – he loved his family dearly, and had never assaulted anyone.
In last week’s column we “heard from” James Holmes, recently convicted of the inexplicable slaughter of twelve complete strangers in a Colorado movie theater. Through Holmes’ personal diary and the testimony of his doctors, we traced how a shy, troubled young man who had never given anyone cause to fear him went from vague thoughts of doing away with the whole screwed-up human race, to actively plotting and carrying out a mass killing.
After reading these two columns RxISK volunteer Johanna Ryan had a question: If Steindor is right, and those who have murderous thoughts on antidepressants are often too afraid or ashamed to report them, is there any other complaint that might give us clues?
Here’s what she found among the FDA and Health Canada reports on RxISK:
| Zoloft Number | Zoloft PRR | Effexor Number | Effexor PRR | Cymbalta Number | Cymbalta PRR | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Homicide | 80 | 15.6 | 50 | 9.5 | 29 | 6.0 |
| Homicidal Ideation | 134 | 8.3 | 152 | 9.5 | 98 | 5.4 |
| Morbid Thoughts | 19 | 5.4 | 24 | 6.9 | 42 | 12.2 |
| Negative Thoughts | 152 | 30.1 | 106 | 20.2 | 31 | 5.5 |
| Obsessive Thoughts | 42 | 7.9 | 49 | 9.3 | 28 | 5.2 |
| Violence Related Symptom | 25 | 5.0 | 31 | 6.3 | 27 | 5.4 |
| Physical Assault | 52 | 6.9 | 71 | 9.6 | 36 | 4.7 |
| Aggression | 610 | 4.5 | 623 | 4.6 | 342 | 2.5 |
| Nightmare | 276 | 3.8 | 442 | 6.1 | 501 | 6.9 |
| Feeling Abnormal | 1168 | 3.1 | 1610 | 4.2 | 1776 | 4.6 |
Each of these drugs has logged about 30,000 complaints, so it seemed valid to compare them. Steindor had been on Effexor, James Holmes had been on Zoloft, and Cymbalta had been implicated in another RxISK article in 2012: gory, disturbing dreams that resembled Hollywood horror movies, even among those who had always avoided such films.
It also impressed her that a few non-SSRI drugs, like Zyban/Wellbutrin and the anticonvulsant Neurontin which is widely used as a “mood stabilizer,” had been blamed for more suicides than the SSRI antidepressants. The FDA lists 2,168 suicides for Wellbutrin and 2,205 for Neurontin compared to “only” 1,130 for Zoloft. Yet those drugs had far fewer complaints for violence-related symptoms.
Reports of both suicide and violence on paroxetine (Paxil or Seroxat) rival those for Zoloft, although the larger number of complaints for paroxetine make comparisons a bit tricky. All the other SSRI drugs can cause these symptoms, although Paxil/Seroxat and Zoloft seem to lead the pack. So can SNRI’s like Effexor and Cymbalta.
But Johanna also spotted one odd symptom for which Zoloft beat any other drug used for depression, hands down: “Feeling guilty.” What did that mean, she asked?
| Drug Name | Number of Reports | PRR |
|---|---|---|
| Neurontin (gabapentin) | 6 | 1.4 |
| Prozac (fluoxetine) | 6 | 2.4 |
| Wellbutrin (bupropion) | 10 | 2.5 |
| Celexa (citalopram) | 12 | 4.2 |
| Cymbalta (duloxetine) | 20 | 5.0 |
| Paxil (paroxetine) | 33 | 5.3 |
| Effexor (venlafaxine) | 130 | 37.5 |
| Zoloft (sertraline) | 188 | 58.5 |
Only Effexor comes anywhere close to Zoloft in this respect.
These drugs seem to have distinctive signatures. Cymbalta triggers gory dreams but not guilt, although a robust 1,776 say they “feel abnormal.” Effexor also comes close to Zoloft and Paxil in the rates of homicide and homicidal ideation. And Effexor beats Paxil hands-down at making people feel guilty.
Who knows what is going on but it does seem that minor differences between these drugs can produce major differences in us and in our experiences. We need any of you who have had several different drugs and had different experiences on them to write in and tell us about what was different.
As Johanna found both anticonvulsants and antidepressants can cause suicide but the antidepressants seem more likely to cause violence. We can only understand what might be going on here if some of you can give an account of your inner experience of these drugs that sheds light on what is going on.
The RxISK stories
Johanna also took a look at Zoloft’s RxISK page, which includes excerpts from the reports we’ve received in the past three years. She found plenty of relevant reports, some quite disturbing.
Physical violence
There were at least five reports of actual physical assaults, two extremely serious:
I hit my husband in the head with a baseball bat while he slept. No history of any domestic problems or violence. We were together for 27 years, happily married for 25, until this one-time incident happened, and destroyed our marriage. After the incident I never saw my husband again. I found myself in the ER, then locked in.
I had an “abnormality of mental functioning” caused by triple dosing of the drug combined with alcohol and emotional state. Am currently serving a minimum of 17 years in prison on a murder charge for killing a loved one. Seriously considered suicide following the event. No longer taking the drug. Will appeal against the outcome and create awareness of such risks to the wider public.
Murderous thoughts
Two people reported specific thoughts of murder, such as this one:
I started having thoughts/visions of hurting or killing my children. These were accompanied by feelings of lack of control, extreme fear and anxiety and a physical sensation of warm tingles moving up my spine and out my extremities.
Mania
Four reported something like classic mania, including this woman:
Most people said that I was not behaving like myself at all, that my behavior was bizarre and often frightening. I was consequently hospitalized against my will. Switched rapidly from friendly and expansive to extremely angry at the slightest perceived provocation. I was driving too fast and aggressively, screaming obscenities at my estranged husband and making perceived threats. Grandiose ideas, talking to everyone I met; very impulsive and apt to make poor decisions.
Uncontrollable anger
There were many reports of repeated angry outbursts that went way beyond mere irritability, and were quite out of character for the person:
I would scream at everyone, especially my children. The hyper-stimulation of their just being around—talking, playing, moving—was too much to handle. Eventually, I had to have a sitter care for them at all times until I was well. Thankfully, I had enough support that I did not physically abuse the children, but I was very close to it on many occasions. It was an awful experience.
Alcoholic drinking
Several who had been either nondrinkers or very moderate drinkers reported drinking heavily and craving alcohol on Zoloft. Two noticed a sudden ability to drink without any hangover the next day. They all reported their behavior while drinking as aggressive and out-of-control.
Emotional numbing
There were LOTS of reports of sexual dysfunction of course, from both men and women,” Johanna noted. “Some were strictly physical, but many reported an inability to feel emotions or to care about other people as well. For some this emotional numbing was the only problem, or was clearly much worse than any sexual dysfunction they had.
“One man’s story really seemed to echo James Holmes’ descriptions of losing normal fear. Holmes wrote that the “fear of failure” had led him to do well in life far more than the “fear of consequences.” His fear of failure – dropping out of college, becoming a weird loser socially, disappointing himself and his family – seemed very much tied to caring about certain people and certain goals. Zoloft put an end to both types of fear, he said, which made him both “fearless” and uncaring. That gave the hostility room to grow and take over.
The story on RxISK was much more prosaic, but pretty alarming in its own way. The man said he stopped paying his bills, and was forced to retire early from his job, because he lost all “normal” anxiety. He then spent his whole retirement account in a few years and neglected to pay the real estate taxes on his house as well, so he’s pretty much flat broke. Now that he’s off the meds he feels acutely what a fool he was – but he realizes he knew what he was doing all along. He was just unable to care.
To one extent or another, this happens to everyone on SSRI’s, and explains why people who are “much too sensitive” emotionally often find them helpful. It may also explain why doctors so often can’t spot the problem: Letting your bills pile up and your kitchen sink overflow with dirty dishes are typical symptoms of “depression.” If this man’s doctor did not listen carefully he could miss the fact that his patient did not feel sad or exhausted – he may even have been out having fun while neglecting his chores. He just didn’t care anymore.
Antidepressants and homicide
Antidepressants have been an issue in some of the horrific mass shootings of the past twenty years, and in many less publicized murders as well. Most news accounts have nonetheless seen the problem as a lack of professional help or a failure to seek it because of stigma—ignoring the “professional help”, largely pharmaceutical, the person was receiving. It has been very rare that defendants or their lawyers have raised the medication issue themselves – they have shied away.
It’s not hard to see why. In America in particular, three decades of “tough on crime” rhetoric have taught the public to see most defenses based on mental illness as excuses for bad behavior, and view them with suspicion. The idea of temporary insanity in a defendant who appeared to be functioning normally until shortly before the crime strikes many as outright fabrication.
Then there’s the drugs themselves. In both Europe and North America the vast bulk of the psychiatric profession has declared SSRI’s and other antidepressants to be innocent of any harm, and in fact to be life-savers that have prevented thousands of suicides. While the FDA found enough compelling evidence of suicidal impulses among children and teens to warn against using antidepressants in youth up to age 24, this Black Box warning has been so regularly disparaged and denounced by leading psychiatrists that it’s seldom brought into the courtroom.
These are also well-known drugs. The average jury will contain at least one or two people who take them or have done so in the past, and everyone knows someone who has tried them. Some people will feel they’ve been a godsend; some will feel they have helped somewhat, and others not at all. Yet very few will link someone who has turned suicidal or violent, or completely changed character to the drug they might be on.
As one man recalled of his Zoloft drinking binges:
I thought I was drinking to get past the pain of my divorce, and I think that’s what family and friends thought too. None of us thought anything about Zoloft. We just thought I was an out-of-control alcoholic, even though I never was a drinker before.
Faced with an acknowledged killer who blames his brutal actions on Zoloft, most in the jury box will say, wait a minute. I know all about those drugs. My mother’s on them, and my nephew, and a few coworkers too. None of them have done anything crazy, so why would Zoloft drive this man out of his mind?
If they were that dangerous, the government or someone would have to warn us. Wouldn’t they?
Ove says
And behind those numbers are we, those bastards who are disgusted upon.
We who have acted out of character, for no reason and with no warningsigns visible.
And not just out of character, but miles beyond, hel* I was about a planetsize away from my normal behaviour.
Then left in a void: things had happened that was impossible to grasp, absolute impossible to comprehend, and to some degree wasn’t even fully accepted by myself as a “real occurance”.
I now know how it could be so ‘un-believable’, to myself, though I knew it had taken Place:
The numbing effect of Seroxat makes memories ‘less attached’ in our brain.
Smells, sounds, sights and other ‘ambient’ parts of memories just aren’t there anymore, just loose images that barely makes sense.
Can anyone understand how ashamed I felt in Court, with all Eyes on me, media in the courtroom, and all I could say was: “I have done this, but I cannot in any way, comprehend why. I would just not do something like this. It comes so natural for me to not hurt anyone else, that this is something I cannot understand”…..
I asked (begged) the Court to send me to forensic psychiatric evaluation, though I know (and knew) I’m not even Close to having any severe mental Health problem.
I suffer from panic anxiety disorder and that is the only diagnose I’ve ever gotten without SSRI’s in my blood. (along with SSRI’s came depression and other diagnoses that I by now know is just side-effects…)
The outcome of the forensic psychiatric evaluation? I was perfectly normal!!!!!
No deviations whatsoever.
3-weeks of intense consultations with 2 psychiatrists (one was professor in psychiatry and the head of the evaluation) one psychologist, one behavioural therapist and several nurses and staff had their say in the evaluation.
My history was scrutinized in detail, they contacted friends, girlfriends and relatives, consulted military officers from my time in the mandatory militaryservice, teachers from back in school.
They all described an intelligent and soft spoken man, never a threat to anyone.
‘Popular’ in school and with great social skills.
So I was left with no explanation. And a prisonsentence.
I’m still hated, but the friends are long gone.
Almost middle-aged, on disability pension, I rarely wander outside.
And the psychiatrists say nothing.
But one day I came across dr. David Healy and the video: “Who cares in Sweden”.
It explained it all to me, and further research explained pretty much all behaviours that had become ‘me’ from the day I took my first SSRI.
From alcohol cravings to in-ability to maintain basic cleanliness, from sexual behaviour and loss of fear, from “I don’t care anymore” to the loss of my 8-year relationship with my high school sweetheart. And it explained my many years of obsession of suicide. And it described the many thoughts that I had to fight to hold back…
But when I mentioned parts of it to my psychiatrist, she denied it all to be a side-effect of any pill.
So I can’t even bare to tell my elderly parents what was the real reason their beloved son behaved like an utter idiot.
Why would they Believe me, when no doctor has given this fairly simple explanation when I asked them?
//Ove
Rory says
Ove
Thanks for sharing your story. Far too many people find themselves in a similar situation. I came close myself but was fortunate to escape the hell of the cocktail of drugs my inept doctors had me on. I am not the same however. I feel flat, emotionless. Also I have lost faith in all institutions, authority and in a higher power. Guess I woke up to reality. No more of the comfortable existence in naive bliss.
Destroyed life says
I hear you bro. At the time my life was turned upside down, I had been on paroxetine for 12 years solid. I’ve never had a criminal bone in my body, yet over this time I lost restraint and became the opposite of the conservative, shy guy I was beforehand. I didn’t care about anything and couldn’t feel most emotions. I didn’t care if I showed up late for work – or if I even went to work. Didn’t care what I said or did. Spending, eating and a number of other behaviours becamee uncontrollable after several years. Everything was in excess. It felt like there were no consequences or dangers in my safe little mental cocoon at the time – I was disconnected, like a mere observer. There was no deliberate malice or eagerness to do wrong, just complete indifference and lack of restraint… what a combo! It wasn’t until years later when I withdrew from SSRI/SNRI meds (after 21 years) that the original “me” came back. I am now so devastated at my behaviours and feel robbed of my late teens, 20’s and most of my 30’s. My promising career was cut short by 30. Now, not many people are willing to believe a common antidepressant can change who you are, how you behave and how you think over time, but they can! Sometimes these behaviours are at the complete opposite end of the spectrum to the original “you”. I used to believe in self control. Now I’ve experienced that the concept of self control is largely an illusion. If you mess with the neurotransmitters, you potentially mess with your mental framework, the framework that controls morals, restraints and behaviours.
Destroyed life says
Don’t get me wrong though, the meds did absolute wonders for my panic and anxiety!
Johanna says
Got a comment via Twitter from Kim Witczak:
Kim Witczak @woodymatters 2h2 hours ago
@RxISK Thx for sharing. Woody talked about “feeling guilty” almost immediately after starting Zoloft. Never did before!!
http://www.woodymatters.com/
Kim lost her husband Woody to suicide in 2003 — about a week after his doctor offered him Zoloft to calm his nerves over some big sales presentations he’d be giving at work. In the years since, she’s become an amazing activist in the fight for drug safety. You can read Woody’s story at the website posted above.
Woody’s suicide was a tragedy that didn’t add up for those who knew him — he was if anything a happy-go-lucky type of guy. In that last week, however, Kim tells me he complained of nightmares he wouldn’t describe, and confided to a male friend that “I just don’t want to hurt Kim.” Which puzzled the friend, because Woody was so happily married and hadn’t even a trace of a violent temper. Why would he worry about that?
Putting Woody’s story together with Steindor’s (and that of James Holmes) leaves me pretty damn sure what’s reflected in reports of “feeing guilty” on Zoloft. It’s not the “classic” guilt and self-blame of depressed people. If it were, we’d get a similar number of reports on every pill marketed to fight depression. A lot of people on Zoloft are both acting out of character — getting drunk, screaming at their families, etc. — and also perhaps having thoughts that horrify them. And they have no clue it’s the drug talking.
PCNG says
“How on earth could an antidepressant drug drive someone to murder?”
Quite easily, it’s a mind altering drug. Mind altering drugs cause some people to engage in all kinds of unwelcome and sometimes deadly behaviours. Whether it is alcohol, cannabis, cocaine, LSD, or antidepressants; behaviour changes, self control diminishes and the results are often fatal.
If these antidepressants are as benign as their pushers and dealers would have us believe, why are they prescription only? Why not put them on the shelf at your local supermarket next to the aspirins? Probably because in order to ensure people keep taking them long enough to get hooked, they need the Doctor dealer there to persuade the victims to keep taking them and to persuade them that all the bad effects are not the nice medicines, but their horrible disease, so they had better keep taking them and quite possibly take some other ones in addition.
The key comparison is between symptoms before the drug was ever taken and symptoms since the drug was taken. The change is the drugs and it ain’t all good. And for those poor fools who merrily keep shoving these pills down their necks everyday, year in, year out, just try stopping and see what happens. What happens will be sheer hell and like nothing you ever experienced before you took the drugs. The drugs are the bigger problem.
Noel Hershfield says
I am with you all the way.Still a bit uncomfortable about all of these anecdotes.Still waiting for a reply to my question,last year.Is there is a study comparing all of these reactions you resort,between those people on these drugs and those who are not? Or is that study impossible.Keep up the good work!
Johanna says
We may get some answers next month… On Sept 19 the British Medical Journal will publish the results of a dig into the raw data behind a famous clinical trial: the so-called “Study 329” on paroxetine for adolescent depression. The officially published results portrayed it as safe and effective, but what actually happened with the teenage subjects was another story. This is a project David Healy and several other researchers have been working on ever since GSK was forced to turn over the records as part of a U.S. Justice Dept. investigation.
What would have been unthinkable 40 years ago is taken for granted today, at least by the insiders: Clinical trials on drugs are organized and paid for by the company making the drug, and the results are their private intellectual property.
So the short answer to your question? Most trials are engineered precisely to avoid getting answers to these tough safety & risk-benefit questions. And when the answers sneak through, they are apt to be massaged out of existence before they hit the “peer-reviewed literature.” Stay tuned!
Rory says
“The key comparison is between symptoms before the drug was ever taken and symptoms since the drug was taken.” – See more at: https://rxisk.org/antidepressants-and-violence-the-numbers/#comment-136102
That IS the evidence that seems to be overlooked. The cognitive dissonance when this is mentioned to “experts” and doctors IS the problem too. Along with the drug, which IS the main problem.
The part about drinking is absolutely true. It was my first clue that made me start to investigate after I stopped taking the drugs. Six weeks after stopping I noticed I had not been drinking for several weeks and not only had I not drank, I did not want to dink, had no craving whatsoever.
Before starting several medications I had been sober five years , comfortably and happily sober. Before that time I had drank heavily. The reason I drank was revealed later when I was diagnosed with autoimmune arthritis and 13 herniated discs due to the degenerative effects of the disease. I drank to kill the pain. The never ending , gnawing , endless physical pain.
I had no intention of ever drinking again once I had stopped and was doing very well staying sober.
Then, suddenly and without warning I had strong cravings for alcohol. I chalked it up to the AA line I had heard so many times when I had attended AA meetings ( in the past), ” a drink is always in the back of your mind – it can creep up and attack you anytime”. ” you will always be an alcoholic and subject to getting drunk any day, no matter how long you have been sober” ( that is something I now know to be false).
I was on Trazodone as a sleep aid , harmless my Dr said. Then he added Wellbutrin because I was showing signs of depression, which I now know were a symptom of my autoimmune disease. When Flexoril was added, within two weeks I was drunk. After five years of solid sobriety I could not stay sober to save my life. I now know that Flexoril acts just like a tricyclic antidepressant in your system and when added to an SSRI ( trazodone) and Wellbutrin it can produce dangerous outcomes, drinking being one of them.
More drugs were added. Lyrica, then Cymbalta, then Diazapam, then Hydrocodone.
Then stop Lyrica and Cymbalta. Cold turkey at the doctors request. Then back on both of them again at the doctors request. I was a basket case!!
Two trips to alcohol rehab did nothing for me. Nothing worked. My shrink kept telling me ” don’t drink while taking these drugs”. Little did I know, and neither did he, that it was the drugs making me want to drink. Making it impossible for me not to drink.
After stopping the drugs and sobering up because I stopped I realized something had changed. I wanted to know why. That’s when I went on the search to find out what had happened. That’s when I found Dr Breggin, Dr Healy and all the hard working people who work with them to expose the truth about these awful drugs and what they really do.
Thank you Johanna Ryan and everyone else on your team for the work you do !!
I remain happily sober with no effort on my part at all. My life, my mind and emotions continue to improve since stopping the meds a year ago. I am not the same tho. I am emotionally flat much of the time, not the go-getter I used to be. I don’t have alot of interest in many of the things I used to do. Still recovering from the drugging I guess.
At least I escaped with my life.
My father was not so fortunate. 30 years of biological psychiatry killed him. At least now I know what happened to him. That it was not him, not his fault. He was a very good man who was destroyed by the folly of modern psychiatry.
Rory
Alex says
These are quite the brutal reactions from antidepressants. It’s quite concerning…
PCNG says
If the FDA will approve flibanserin, as they recently have, then they surely must be corrupt or something. Have you seen the data? How extreme does this madness have to get before more within the medical community speak out? Perhaps someone within Sprout (the owners of flibanserin) has a hell of a lot of influence with the FDA, I don’t know. Why on earth has this drug been approved? The data shows very little benefit at all and heaps of dangerous other effects. The involvement of the militant feminist movement in arguing that it is sexist not to have a “female viagra” and that this pressure appears to have influenced the decision is ridiculous to the point of insanity. This is extreme. It’s crazy. How are we supposed to have any faith in the medical community at all? And how regrettable is that?
PCNG says
But then again, what would the poor psychiatrists do if we took all their drugs away? With nothing left to play with, nothing left to sell, how would they cover the payments on their yachts?
Johanna says
Just one correction, PCNG … the “militant feminist movement” demanding the FDA approve Flibanserin as a gender-equity issue? It was largely the creation of the drug’s manufacturer and their powerhouse Washington, DC public relations firm, Blue Engine Message & Media. Pure “astroturf”, as in fake grassroots.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/us/aid-to-women-or-bottom-line-advocates-split-on-libido-pill.html
Many of the women’s organizations that signed on to the “Even the Score Campaign” are front groups themselves. As for groups with a real history like NOW, tons of feminists are as disgusted as you that they either let themselves be fooled by the rhetoric … or perhaps signed on as part of the endless horsetrading and backscratching on Capitol Hill, where they spend way too much of their time.
The most reputable women’s health groups around, like Our Bodies Ourselves and the National Women’s Health Network, have been outspoken critics of this BS. The side effects of this third-rate antidepressant (and that’s what it is) are nowhere near worth the modest boost in libido it may give to perhaps 10-15% of those who try it.
And even if it were 100% safe, what kind of feminist advance is this? If a relationship is fizzing out, the woman must be defective. Very old school, I think … disgustingly so.
PCNG says
Agreed – a cynical and twisted use of the “feminist cause” to further commercial ends.
JR says
After 15 years on these drugs, I am now 6 months “clean”. Been off Luvox since February, though I still have residual agitation, dysphoria and appetite problems (all improving).
1999-2003: Paxil 10-20 mg, no problems really. Stopped in 2003 by accident when Rx expired and I failed to refill. Brief withdrawal (2 weeks) and then fine for a month before OCD-related worries returned.
2003: Celexa 10mg for 8 months. Was both sedating and activating. Could sleep through an earthquake, but a wiry spazz while awake. Nocturnal bruxism caused a cracked molar.
2004: Celexa upped to 20, then 40 mg. Would be fine for months but then OCD type worries would reappear for bouts of 3-4 weeks, causing anxiety that was FAR WORSE than anything pre-treatment (I now wonder if it was actually “OCD-type” anxiety.)
2007: Celexa upped to 60 mg after another anxiety episode. (Bruxism ongoing, sleep problems).
2008: Took myself down to 40 mg of Celexa following reports of prolonged QT interval (I have aortic stenosis and was worried about occasional episodes of vertigo and pounding heart I had experienced). The failure to taper (which I didn’t realize at the time) caused a 2 month bout of anorexia (NOT nervosa) and a 25 lb weight loss. Low mood for another 9 months, then back to “normal”.
2013: Still on 40 mg of Celexa (10 years total use) – had started developing overly hostile and aggressive feelings toward friends and family. HIGHLY noise sensitive (sounds of yawning, coughing, etc.). Had begun to hyperfocus on internet hobbies to sooth inner restlessness. After a familial argument, went into an anxiety episode so severe I was sleeping 16+ hours a day for a week on end. Decided it was time to switch.
Nov. 2013: Placed on 50 mg Zoloft. Felt better immediately and more cheerful.
Feb 2014: Zoloft upped to 100 mg. GI problems (diarrhea and cramps) began and didn’t stop for months. Lost 25 lbs as a result. Following job loss, inner restlessness and agitation appeared. Doctor decided to switch me to Luvox.
Aug 2014: Began Luvox 25 mg one day after going off Zoloft. Felt euphoric and started manically cleaning, writing, and going for walks in the middle of the night. Lasted four days. Then…..a crash. At a restaurant, I grew dysphoric and agitated. I was suddenly overcome with an impulse to hurt someone and I had to restrain my left arm from throwing a bottle at a waitress. Paid my bill and left in a panic. Briskly walking home, I was overtaken by an intense urge to step into oncoming traffic. Was both numb and also felt a hot sweat overtaking my body. Arrived home, started frantically pacing my apartment, feeling like I had no identity. Sat down in middle of the floor, sobbing, feeling like I was going to take my life and had no choice in the matter. Crawled into bed, fell asleep and had extremely violent dreams. Awoke the next morning on my kitchen floor.
Called the doctor, he said what I was experiencing was “harm OCD”. After extensive research (all the while still dealing with agitation and dysphoria), I learned that I was likely dealing with akathisia, due either to the Luvox, the cross titration of Luvox and Zoloft (resulting in serotonin syndrome), or Zoloft withdrawal. These feelings continued until February when I made the decision to stop Luvox. (I also ditched the moronic doctor.)
It’s getting better, but I am still not 100%. Don’t know if I ever will be. 300 mg of vitamin B6 a day has been very helpful. Carbohydrates, especially refined sugar, make everything worse, so general low carb eating helps. Require a MASSIVE amount of caffeine just to feel “normal”.
Nicola says
Does anyone know whether it’s normal for the original problem to resurface when you stop the drugs and be much much worse than what it was before. I took them for an OCD thought /fear since withdrawal from by drug this fear is now totally unmanageable.
Is this normal? Does it go back to baseline eventually
Thanks to anyone kind enough to reply
Dr. David Healy says
Nicola
This is so difficult – can take a longer time to settle back down than most people realise
David
annie says
Dear Nicola
I think the problem lies in that if you go through a withdrawal which is so bad that you cannot function at all, then the ‘original’ problem not only pales in to insignificance with you, but, is magnified a million times by others, and, this is what destructs relationships with anybody who was around at the time and because your doctor and/or psychiatrist was may be not at all sympathetic, then the “original” problem on which they focused is then pushed to its limits.
To put it another way, the dichotomy between a clever doctor realising withdrawal effects and a naïve doctor not helping you out is what leads to the baseline being obliterated.
This is a terrible situation in which to find yourself and I can only speak of my own experience with Paroxetine, that I felt like it has taken years to come down off it.
I sympathise with everyone who comments when we still jump with sudden noises, bright lights; still get zaps and noises in the head and all the rest of the disfiguring legacies so well described on the other posts.
Akathisia is a hyping up of everything, over stimulated, and, over the top of anything approaching a normal reaction to anything.
This may not be the definitive term, but, it goes some way to put it over.
I would never have dreamt of telling any body that because I knew they wouldn’t have the faintest idea of what I was talking about. I just thought it.
I really feel that I know what I am talking about now and getting back to baseline is one of the most difficult challenges we all have to try and get back too, but, sadly, that baseline no longer exists.
So, you have to alter your baseline, as you cannot go back in time.
A new life, a new beginning with totally different parameters.
It is not easy to do this and it means rewriting your life, but, if you want to take up the gauntlet and do this….you can join us in how we explain in an articulate fashion what it means and, basically, how we think about it so that others can think about it, too.
Your question is one thousands of people must ask themselves every day.
Thank you asking it.
Best wishes
Annie
Mr Sensible says
Dont know what to say to all the above, more horror stories from medico/pharma house of horror, Hammer eat your heart out, this is the real thing. In my case the first year after a year of 225mg venlafaxine I would best describe myself as some sort cross between Bugs Bunny’s nemises Yosemite Sam and The Tasmanian Devil. I do recall at some point in this year getting this strong urge out of nowhere to attack my girlfriend and being utterly disgusted with myself for getting any kind of violent urges towards a person who was doing so much to help me through this time(7yrs ago). Rory glad you’ve found revocery again, I was very very fortunate on that one . I was 10 yrs sober through AA when I got stuck on venlacrapzine for erm work stress. I wasn’t aware at that time that 225mg of venlafaxine is not exactly what would be termed standard procedure in the UK for a GP dealing with what was work stress/burnout. I was aware of the issue of these drugs giving people strong urges to drink. The longest sober member of AA in my area had the year before my trip on them hit the booze again after 27 yrs and attributed it to an AD giving him urges to drink again. I had also heard other long term sober AA members talking about taking an AD and getting big urges to drink again. However, I experienced another odd effect which I’m attributing to venlafaxine, it in fact turns you into Seigfried Sassoon. As i couldnt sleep at night for nearly 4 yrs post withdrawal I was reading an lot of history books at night. I became totally obsessed with WW1 for about 18 months and read everything that I could get hold off on the topic with a particular interest in the Passchendale Offensive of 1917. Now why would someone whos just had their life wrekced by an AD become so obsesssed with with a quaint little Flanders village that in 1917 became the site of the most gruesome battle of WW1, futility I would say. I even made a trip to said village a year after I cam off venlafaxine and whislt wondering around Tyne Cot Cemetray, The largest British and Commonwealth cemetry in the world I felt at peace as if I was in my spiritual home, walking amongst the dead of a futile war, ‘I died in Hell, the doctor called it venlafaxine, my wound was slight, my mad team leader had done my head in alright, so I went to my doctor to signed off with stress so I could get her out my sight and now I’m ripping of Seigfried Sassoon cause I cant sleep anymore at night’ its got various different endings. Few other famous war poems got adapted by myself during this period of my life. However can I sue the manufacturers of venlafaxine for turning me into Seigfried Sassoon without my prior consent, can I sue the GP for this after all I was more than happy with being the person that I was and had no desire whatsoever to be turned into a Great War Poet
Cicada says
carolinacoastonline.com you can find an article, or google “David Godwin murder Effexor”. This person wasn’t like this? This was beyond what I can simply describe as out of character. He got death. High hopes for an appeal. This is just….? It keeps happening. These nightmares..and then it happens to someone you love. It could happen to anyone. I know some use this as an excuse…but it’s simply not coincidence. 2 weeks after starting it. known bi-polar(non-violent!! was suicidal.), was given it without a stabilizer. Coke and Mentos. 🙁 a life gone, and a once beautiful soul destroyed by its actions brought on by Effexor. It hurts so much.
Watson boone says
Corey Reynolds, a perfectly normal and loving man was prescribed Cymbalta for depression. In the 7 weeks time he was on the medication he attempted suicide,was baker acted, jumped out of a moving vehicle, punched his friend in the face, swam a quarter mile into the ocean in the middle of the night, supposedly choked his girlfriend and finally shot and injured two police officers all from the negative side effects of the drug. His pharmacologist expert testified that the drug was responsible for all these actions as he also experienced mania, mood swings impaired judgement, agitation, akathisia, worse depression,anxiety, and trouble sleeping, amaonst other cognitive impairment and memory issues.
The Florida courts would not give him any relief and is serving life in prison with out parole.
These drugs need to be banned and those who’s lives have been ruined need redemption and the drug companies ought to pay through their teeth for those damages that no amount of money can redeem the horror it has wrought on so many lives. I know the man Corey Reynolds who is a sweet, and compassion man, who would never have end involved with any of the things he did while on he medication. I noticed someone also has begun advocating for his release on http://www.justiceunveiled.org
Dr. David Healy says
Thanks for this. I will be giving a lecture for Mad in America on just this topic in a few weeks time. The talk will be posted if you spot this and can help spread the word that would be great
David