In recent years, there has been increasing concern about the problem of antidepressants finding their way into the environment. These drugs aren’t fully absorbed by the body and are present in human waste. Small concentrations are then flowing into rivers via wastewater treatment facilities where wildlife can be affected.
In August 2018, several media outlets reported that antidepressants were having a negative effect on the courting behavior of starlings (birds), specifically that males were singing less to females and showed signs of decreased interest.
A cursory glance of the headlines suggested that this might be the issue of antidepressants causing reduced sexual interest and disruption of normal social behaviors. Almost everyone who takes an SSRI or SNRI will be affected sexually to some degree, and these drugs can also cause emotional blunting, potentially affecting feelings of love towards a partner. But in this case, there was an unexpected twist to the story.
The media reports related to a study by Whitlock et al which noted that starlings are being exposed to antidepressants in the environment by foraging for invertebrates near wastewater treatment plants. To investigate what effect this might have on behavior, the authors ran a trial involving a group of starlings, some of which they administered with fluoxetine. The concentration wasn’t based on a therapeutic dose, but instead was in line with the low levels that these birds can be exposed to environmentally.
If the study had reported altered behavior in the birds that were exposed to the antidepressant, this might have been expected. In this case, however, it was discovered that the male starlings appeared to be less attracted to and more aggressive towards the females that had been given a small dose of fluoxetine, compared to those that were not exposed to the drug. In other words, the administration of an SSRI appeared to make the female starlings less desirable.
The authors of the study were unable to explain this finding. While the medicated females displayed increased aggressiveness on day one of the study and less aggressiveness on day two, overall this didn’t correlate with the altered male behavior. Female aggression occurred even in the non-medicated control group.
In the absence of a clear explanation, the authors discussed several possible ideas based on the known effects of antidepressants such as lethargy, changes to personality, and reduced sexual receptiveness.
It’s difficult to know why an antidepressant made the female starlings less attractive to males. However, it might be interesting to speculate as to whether a similar scenario could occur in humans. Could the use of antidepressants make men and women less desirable to a potential partner, either in terms of physical attractiveness or anything else that might hinder the ability to make an emotional connection – and if so, what specific effects might contribute to this?
Smell
The ability to smell a partner’s natural odor and their ability to smell our own is important in a relationship. Various medications can affect sense of smell in different ways. Perhaps one of the most interesting is the oral contraceptive.
A study by Roberts et al found that women’s preferences in terms of the natural odor of a potential partner changed depending on whether or not they were using contraceptive medication. While unmedicated, the women typically preferred the odor of men whose immune system was different to their own. This seems like useful natural behavior as parents with the most dissimilar immune systems can apparently produce a stronger immune system in their offspring.
But when on a contraceptive, women preferred the odor of men with an immune system that was similar to theirs. This has implications for women who begin a long-term relationship while on contraceptive medication, and who then halt the drug a few years later to start a family, and realize they are no longer attracted to the smell of their partner.
In terms of antidepressants, some people experience a reduced sense of smell (hyposmia) which could potentially impair their ability to properly smell a partner. As sense of smell also plays a significant role in a person’s sense of taste, both senses can be affected. RxISK’s recent paper on post-SSRI sexual dysfunction included some reports where a reduced sense of smell and/or taste persisted after the antidepressant had been stopped. Obviously, an antidepressant-induced hyposmia would only affect the person taking the drug. It wouldn’t make them less attractive to someone else who wasn’t on the medication.
However, a common side effect of SSRIs is increased sweating. This can lead to increased body odor, which may be particularly difficult to keep under control in warm weather. There is the added complication that if the person also has a reduced sense of smell from the drug, they may not be fully aware of the extent of their problem.
Separate from the sweating issue, there have been some instances where people have noticed an actual change in body odor following the commencement of antidepressants. If this had only been detected by the person taking the drug, it would be difficult to know whether the change in odor was real or if the drugs were producing an olfactory hallucination, or perhaps a degree of parosmia (where a smell is perceived incorrectly).
But interestingly, there have been occasions where an apparent change in natural odor has been noticed by the person’s partner who has commented that they no longer smell the same since starting the antidepressant, and they don’t feel as attracted to them as a result.
Personality and behavioral changes
Antidepressants can alter a person’s behavior and personality in a variety of ways.
One of the main effects, particularly from SSRIs and SNRIs, is emotional blunting. This not only means that a person no longer cares as much about something that is troubling them, but it can also make them not care as much about their job, their partner, their children, etc. Some people decide to stop the medication because they don’t like the abnormal flattening of their emotions or they find it disturbing that they have lost the ability to cry in sad situations. However, people often don’t realize the extent to which they are being affected until they stop the drug.
Emotional blunting can also make people less concerned about the consequences of their actions which can lead to disinhibited and risky behaviors. After coming off antidepressants, people are sometimes surprised or embarrassed about the things they said or did while on the medication.
In 2000, a randomized placebo controlled trial was run in which healthy volunteers from the administrative, medical and nursing staff at a psychiatric unit were put on antidepressants. This was a double blind study, meaning that neither the participants or trial organizers knew who was on an antidepressant and who was on placebo.
One of the male medical staff became so changed by the medication that his patients noticed he was acting out of character, leading one of them to ask, “what’s he on?”
A female participant became disinhibited and very needy of people’s time and company. She told her life story to a colleague who she didn’t know very well. She also began impulsively spending more money than normal, and did a number of other things that she would later regret, including some that she was reluctant to divulge.
Another participant reported feeling a lack of fear and being unconcerned about the consequences of her actions. This was demonstrated when she stopped her car in moving traffic and grabbed and threatened a youth at the side of the road who had been making obscene gestures at a junction. Her behavior was completely out of character and terrified her mother who was a passenger in the car.
Both of the female participants mentioned above went on to become suicidal. Interestingly, one of them didn’t stop taking the antidepressant even though she was told to stop on more than one occasion by the trial organizers. In the end, the drug had to be physically taken away from her.
For anyone who wants to read more about the study, it is available here. There is also a more extensive account in chapter 7 of the book, Let Them Eat Prozac.
Other problems
A fairly common side effect of antidepressants is dry mouth. While this might not seem like a major problem, it can make you more prone to bad breath, and in the longer term, tooth decay. SSRIs can also cause teeth grinding which can result in significant damage. If you were to lose any teeth, your options may be limited as a 2014 study from Wu et al and a subsequent study from the University of Buffalo have reported that antidepressants may increase the failure rate of dental implants.
Another side effect that some people experience is significant weight gain. This can happen gradually which means that people often don’t realize the drug is causing the problem. Regardless of whether or not you think a person’s weight dictates their attractiveness, the point is that if they’re unhappy about having gained a lot of weight, it can affect their self-esteem which in turn can influence how they act around others.
In addition to some of the dramatic personality and behavioral changes described earlier, antidepressants can also have more subtle effects on behavior. For example, a healthy volunteer study by Jonassen et al discovered that a single dose of citalopram caused participants to display reduced eye contact when viewing images of faces. Participants also exhibited an increased number of saccades (small, quick movements of the eyes). The authors concluded: “These results suggest that the SSRI administration affects the perceptual processing of face stimuli.”
Perhaps the most obvious group of problems that can potentially impact relationships are sexual side effects. These can include reduced genital sensation, lowered libido, erectile or lubrication dysfunction, orgasm disorders, and other difficulties.
Antidepressants can sometimes also cause a range of cognitive issues including difficulty concentrating, memory problems, and an inability to think clearly. They are sometimes referred to collectively as “brain fog” and may worsen or become noticeable for the first time during withdrawal. These issues rarely show up on standard psychological testing, meaning that those affected can find it almost impossible to obtain objective evidence of their impairment, even though it may be having a profound impact. Like personality and behavioral changes, cognitive impairment can influence how you interact with other people and how well you make a connection.
Noticing a difference
Depending on the person, it’s sometimes possible to notice if they are taking an antidepressant, particularly if you knew them before they started the drug and can tell that something is different about the things they say or the way they act. In others, it can be more difficult to recognize. People sometimes comment that a person, who they may not know is on an antidepressant, is a little strange though they can’t quite explain why. They might seem a little spaced out or in a world of their own, or just have a certain quality to them that seems slightly medicated.
You might have encountered a situation where you watched a celebrity being interviewed on TV and noticed there was something a little unusual about them – and later discovered they are taking antidepressants.
Perhaps there is something about this very subtle change that was detected by the male starlings. Maybe they instinctively knew that something was different about the female birds on fluoxetine, and were able to perceive changes in behavior that wouldn’t have been noticeable to observers.
In human terms, it’s difficult to say whether the effects of an antidepressant would be off-putting to a potential partner, and to what extent. There are certainly plenty of people on antidepressants who are in relationships. A care-free attitude and a degree of disinhibition may be viewed by some as attractive qualities, although sexual dysfunction and decreased empathy are probably less desirable in a partner.
A major issue is that many of the effects produced by antidepressants can sometimes remain indefinitely after the drug is stopped including emotional blunting, cognitive impairment, sexual dysfunction, and many more. Problems like dry mouth and teeth grinding can also leave permanent damage.
Mirror, mirror, on the wall…
If there are any psychologists reading this who are looking for an interesting idea for a research project, it would be fascinating if someone attempted to run a similar experiment to the starlings study, but in humans.
Speculating on what this might look like, it could perhaps be some kind of dating experiment involving a group of men who haven’t been exposed to SSRIs, and a group of women – half of whom are given an SSRI for the duration of the study. Each male participant would be paired up with each female in turn and sent on a date. The male participants could then rate which females they connected with the most. Obviously, this experiment could also be run with the sexes reversed.
An alternative might be some kind of speed dating event, although spending only a few minutes together might not be long enough to notice some of the more subtle behavioral changes that antidepressants can cause.
It would be preferable to use healthy volunteers rather than recruiting people who are already using antidepressants, as the latter would only result in applications from those patients who are doing well on the drugs. Those dealing with sweating issues, lethargy, excessive weight gain, akathisia, and other problems probably wouldn’t volunteer for a dating experiment.
Even without exploring the issue of attraction and courtship, it would be interesting to put a group of men and women together for a few hours and see if they could tell who was on an antidepressant and who wasn’t.
Spruce says
This is a very interesting article, and touches on a few experiences I have had myself.
One example is when I took Fluvoxamine for 5 months back in late 2007- early 2008, I had at some points quite a dramatic change in character/ personality, that at times was almost quite frightening.
I remember one time there was an incidence on the road outside my flat (I think it was to do with a window being smashed) and there were two policemen questioning some people about what had happened. I remember leaning out of the window and almost shouting at the policemen my account of what I had heard and seen, in an almost inappropriately confident and almost manic way.
I also remember during this time feeling very confident socially (I am usually quite shy), becoming very excited about mundane things, and feeling as if I had to I could talk in front of a crowd of 100’s of people without any inhibitions (I usually struggle with public speaking).
I also started having quite strong urges to randomly start chatting to women I found attractive on the street, and to ask for their phone numbers, as I was feeling so confident socially. Thankfully I managed to curtail my urge to do this, and never actually did this. I did mention my urges to do this to my rethink support worker though, who was a little concerned by how forward it seemed.
All of these feelings of almost manic confidence, which at times I felt almost compelled to act on, thankfully went away quite quickly after I came off Fluvoxamine.
Another thing I have noticed when I have my windows with the PSSD, is that the type of women I find attractive changes. This has happened so many different times, that I know that I am not imagining it. I was actually thinking about this the other day, about how I wanted to write a comment about it at some point, because I have noticed it so much.
When I am in a wave with my PSSD and it is at its worst, I can only seem to find young women physically attractive, particularly late teens- early 20’s women. The thought of being attracted to older women, just doesn’t seem as appealing, or to make sense.
When I have a window, and my PSSD lessens, although I still find younger women attractive, I start finding older women attractive as well, and become less attracted to the much younger women.
I.e I find women maybe early 20’s – 40’s attractive when my PSSD lifts a bit, but when my PSSD is bad I seem to feel much less attraction to women over 30, and I seem to be noticeably more attracted to younger women.
I don’t know why this is.
mary H says
This is so interesting Spruce, especially about the different age range that attracts you at different times – and takes a lot of courage to open up about it I should think.
David has always said that when a cure for PSSD is found it should offer answers to many other problems concerning these drugs too. From what you say, who knows what other possibilities lie there too.
I am sure that anything that you can add on this, or any other aspect of your problems, could help someone who reads it to come closer to the answer that everyone is waiting for as regards PSSD and other similar conditions.
Heather R says
This is real Rachel Carson ‘Silent Spring’ stuff, isn’t it? And she was warning years ago that birds would do this, that fish wouldn’t multiply any more, because the sexual attraction thing has gone or they all become female. She was warning about this a long time ago ———-few folk listened. The few that did, have got a good chance of a long and healthy life.
Johanna says
If people on antidepressants are less attractive as potential partners, I think it’s mainly because they themselves are less interested in sex and romance. True, women in this society are judged way too much by our looks, and to some extent men are too. You can find yourself written off if your weight, your teeth, your aroma or whatever does not meet Hollywood standards.
But still … I often used to think how much sweeter life would be if I were a tall skinny blond. But then I’d notice some other woman who was fifty pounds overweight and no great beauty, out there dancing and flirting—and doing pretty damn well at it! The real obstacle was not my weight or my hairdo; it was my state of mind. Antidepressants helped to keep me in a “functional” but joyless state described so well in that corny old 70’s hit by Barry Manilow:
You remind me, I live in a shell
Safe from the past, and doing OK, but not very well
No jolts, no surprises
No crisis arises, my life goes along as it should
It’s all very nice, but not very good …
To a person stuck in this zone, finding a partner may feel like a chore on her To-Do list. The main motivator is not temptation, but anxiety: You don’t want to wake up at forty and find all the good ones are taken, do you? Or miss the chance to have kids, or be all alone when you’re old? Whereas that sister out on the dance floor doesn’t have to nag herself to “get out and meet some guys.” She would find it stressful to have to stop! She may not be a Supermodel, but she’s interested – and men pick up on that in all kinds of ways, both direct and subtle. When people talk about “chemistry” or a lack thereof, this is often what they mean.
This kind of apathy is less of a side effect of SSRI’s, and more the Main Event. It may not cause suicide, but it can steal lives nonetheless. One day at a time.
Spruce says
That’s how PSSD ruins your life Johanna. It takes one day at a time, until you start getting old and your options run out, and all you have left is a lifetime of regrets.
Just to let everyone know the sad news that another person on the PSSD Facebook group called Kata took her own life about two weeks ago. She had PSSD and was suffering with antidepressant withdrawal in general. I chatted with her a few times on messanger at the beginning of the year.
So that’s the second person I know this year with PSSD who have taken their own lives.
Anne-Marie says
I’m sitting here now in the dentist waiting room waiting for yet another filling due to one of many ruined whilst on SSRIs falling out. My teeth alone are in a desperate state. I had perfect teeth before SSRIs. Have to go their now calling me.
Anne-Marie says
Tooth done thankfully, I always worry they are going to say its going to need removing, it’s a front tooth so will look terrible if i lost it.
SSRIs dry mouth, tooth grinding and heavy drinking has left it’s damage.
Anyone on SSRIs should at least chew none sugery chewing gum to help create saliva. It’s the dry mouth and lack of saliva that causes a lot of the damage.
mary H says
Anne-Marie, – just to add here that Shane has, at last, after a wait of over two years, had his last five teeth removed. What he was told by three different dentists was that it’s the way that psychotropic drugs work on the body that caused the rot – that the rot set in from inside the gum etc. as opposed to outer tooth rot initially I suppose. This does make sense in his case as he had very little pain during that long wait. Also, the need to slit the gum on removal when it eventually happened, which they had not expected to have to do on inspection. An x-ray seemed to tell a different story which resulted in the slitting across all five lower front teeth. Recovery was extremely painful and needed a course of antibiotics – but, as of this week, he is breaking his dentures back in very gingerly, a few minutes at a time. He’s building up to eating a steak – that’s his motivation! For me, it’s seeing his smile ( which is now returning with less drugs going in)after such a long wait and being able to lip read again when he speaks. You can’t lip read an empty mouth! However it happens, it is a great shame that doctors seem to neglect this too as a sign of detrimental outcomes of their medicating.
Anne-Marie says
Sliting the gums to remove the teeth sounds horrendous, poor guy hope his ok now. When they removed mine they wriggled the tooth backwards and forwards very slowly like trying to uncork a bottle of wine untill it popped out. I would worry it might snap in half and leave half of it in then they would have to cut you open. Sounds like that happened to your son
I grinded my teeth so badly especially on my left side that one tooth at the back only had about a third of the tooth left, the dentist was horrified but was able to save it for a few years and rebuilt it. I eventually had to have it removed when it fell apart again. I also have one below it half filled too.
I recall grinding very badly back then especially in my sleep but took little notice of it as I was too detached and consumed with other side effects and problems, my teeth grinding was the last thing on my mind at the time
Looking back I’m sure tooth grinding could be a sign of akathisia too.
Anne-Marie says
Sorry Mary I just reread your comment, l missed you saying he had all his teeth removed that is really, really very bad. Poor, poor guy and his still quite young too.
These drug companies have so much to answer for.
annie says
The Starlings, and other stories …
I was wedded to my glorious home on the Banks of a Loch, I was wedded to my child, I was wedded to the way our life worked and anyone looking in from the outside could pretty much see that the unit was rock solid, the dog was very happy..
Along comes Seroxat, and whoosh, everyone is looking at me now.
We had all had the chemistry, the nice smells, the attraction smells, the smells that tell another person, young or old, that you are welcome in their lives and that makes the world go round..
The GPs and Psychiatrist picked up really bad smells, terrible odours, vibes of terrible discomfort, a chemistry set of ‘don’t come near me’ and ‘I won’t come near you’.
What should have been life’s most important relationship was tossed asunder and an entire unit was cast off in to the shadows never to see daylight again.
The giving of Seroxat was the death knell and the bad smell and it has wafted around and soiled the fresh Scottish air and our garden of beauty and life wilted and grew no more.
tim says
Yes, antidepressants can indeed make you less attractive.
The simple beauty (and the complete lack of awareness of her beauty, her humour and charisma) of our now poisoned and grievously injured adult child, sometimes literally took my breath away.
Now her resilience takes my breath away.
SSRIs for exam stress in a joyous, always happy and laughing young woman were to cause so many different systemic and neurological injuries it becomes difficult to regard these drugs as anything other than intensely toxic, indeed highly poisonous.
The most intense acute toxicity was akathisia, and with serial misdiagnosis this lead to an enforced, contra-indicated cascade of similarly poisonous combinations of psychotropic drugs.
Now – seven years from the onset of this unforgivable, iatrogenic destruction of such a beautiful young woman, the extensive skin injuries: – face, chest and back, are causing much pain and disfigurement.
Skin lesions which add to shame, isolation and rejection.
In addition to what is perceived to be anti-psychotic induced “pseudo-acne”, the skin immunology has changed with atopy, eczema and hypersensitivity.
Have SSRIs been party to this? I believe so.
The Injuries do seem to be concentrated in a wide range of systems where intense metabolic activity is the norm.
Is it mitochondrial toxicity and/or disruption of cell wall micro-physiology that is the common denominator behind the “drug-wrecked” body that she now lives in?
If only the self-described experts in psychopharmacology, whose conflicts of interests are now being challenged, would look down the correct eyepiece of their pharma-telescope.
If instead of denial of toxicity and protestations of “safe”, “effective” and “non-addictive” we had some Candour – a G.M.C. demanded Duty of a Doctor.
These drugs have some of the most disabling, disfiguring, life-threatening and lethal ADRs in medical prescribing experience.
So why not study, in great depth and with vast investment, the cellular, sub-cellular and biochemical basis for such intense and widely distributed toxicity.
Here may lie some real science, and the potential for real scientific scientific discovery.
Researchers could write their own papers. Achieving publication may be challenging.
Simply the commitment to such endeavour would decrease the ritual and compulsory poisoning of patients by mainstream psychiatry.
It would surely decrease iatrogenic injury and death.
For the survivors, they may be left less isolated and rejected from society and employment by invalid “diagnostic” labels for life.
Their GPs may become interested in them again.
They might even apologise for what their safe and effective drugs had done.
That also is their professional Duty.
They may then be allowed to retain their beauty and their innate attractiveness.
Hope could be restored. They might even have a future?
susanne says
Tim Thanks -I have never heard the prescribing described as a ‘ritual’ before – it so apt – the more they do it the more ingrained it becomes and the harder to challenge or change their beliefs
tim says
Susanne,
Thanks for your comment on the concept of PRESCRIBING BY RITUAL in psychiatry.
Observation of practice convinces me that ritualistic prescribing is a reality, and another potential cause of iatrogenic injury and death.
First Prescriber:
Olanzapine and fluoxetine prescribed for unrecognised akathisia and for then for neurotoxicity following previous prescribing rituals.
Second Prescriber;
Mirtazapine and quetiapine prescribed for unrecognised akathisia, the same for behavioural changes in organic brain disease.
Having taught trainee doctors in analysing and enhancing their consultation process, (with the aspiration of optimising the therapeutic potential of excellence in consultation) – I have occasionally observed psychotropic drug prescribers consultation technique and their prescribing pen/prescription pad non-verbal communication.
Whilst highly subjective, and clearly with the bias of adverse outcome experience:
I became convinced that their decision to a) prescribe, and b) what would be prescribed was taken early in the consultation – or even before the consultation had taken place.
If this speculation were to be validated, then the reasons why this (alleged) ritualistic or pre-emptive psychotropic drug prescribing takes place merit investigation.
Pre-emptive prescribing would not be compatible with consent, and affords no time for an individual approach.
Coercion negates consent.
It would suggest that consideration of drug toxicity and anticipating potential ADRs are not on the prescriber’s agenda.
In primary care – prescribing an SSRI seemed to be an effective means to keep on time in the hamster wheel of 10 minute appointments.
This was not ritualistic.
The rituals were observed in psychiatric prescribing.
Are they driven by financial conflicts of interest and/or by personal perceived clinical experience?
If I did observe the above – (rather than imagine) – the process was not compatible with “clinical excellence”.
susanne says
Tim – I have been thinking again since your response – thank you I suggest there is also pre-emptive diagnoses based on limited understanding and inaccuracies in GP referral notes. A person is by then already on the path you describe as pre-emptive prescribing. – rarely will they have read the referral letter and certainly not received a copy, even as a matter of courtesy which should be standard,, and which would give a window to agree or not and to add to the notes at the start , which would help in deciding if the medics involved are trustworthy respectful and have the right approach. So many encounters are downright rude and even rather bizarre . Where else are extremely intimate questions asked without explanation , where else can a person see notes are being made about them without knowing what is being said,
Heather R says
This post starts by telling us that the SSRIs etc are not being absorbed by the body are are present in human waste. Following on then from Tim’s premise that maybe ‘they could be penetrating the cell wall’ in some people, causing major mental and physical damage. If the liver is overwhelmed and can’t detoxify them at that stage of digestion because maybe it doesn’t have enough of the necessary enzymes, or because the gallbladder isn’t producing enough bile salts to deal with them, so they stay too long in the system and cause havoc. Do we know what chemicals are in these poisons? Early such medicines used dyes and later ones, even anti-freeze. Do we have any idea what chemicals we are swallowing when we take an SSRI? If the excreted ones can affect the birds in the environment as stated in this post, surely how much worse could the damage be if they are trapped in the body because proper metabolic digestion has been impeded for some reason. In severe allergy, skin and mind are affected. In ME, some think that viruses get through the mitochondria and replicate themselves. Could SSRIs be doing this and causing the body to turn on itself allergically? When psychiatrists say antidepressants work but at the same time, they don’t know how they work, do they also know what these drugs are comprised of? Like Tim says, isn’t it about time biochemists began sharing with us knowledge of exactly what chemicals are in these drugs and whether they can cause serious long term allergy? Tim’s comment is powerful, challenging, and surely should make the prescribers sit up and think, and turn the telescope around. Or have they done this already, do they know the truth, but daren’t tell us because the crime that has been committed against humanity is too awful to face up to? Easier to brand all those who report how ill they feel, as suffering from mental delusions.
We are approaching November 2nd – All Souls Day, once more. Last year we all lit candles for loved ones, alive and suffering, or no longer here physically beside us. But damaged by prescribed medications. We asked the Universe, power of good, whatever we believed in, to help to raise awareness of the Pharma and medical prescription issues we were so concerned about. Although there is much more to be done, if we look back a year, I think the changes have actually been quite encouraging, especially the recent APPG Report and the interest in AKATHISIA and the research and RxISK Prize. RxISK has done some amazing stuff in so many areas. . We can all light our candles again on All Souls Day and keep the momentum going, can’t we? Maybe we could publicise it even more widely this time? What do we all think?
susanne says
Tim – It is all so shocking it might be tempting to think it was a nightmare. so many share the same experience and outrage , there is no doubt the state is rotten. I have been thinking again since your response – thank you. there is also pre-emptive diagnoses based on limited understanding and inaccuracies in GP referral notes. Someone’s experience can be precied in a way they find very insulting and misleading. A person is by then already on the path you describe as pre-emptive prescribing. – rarely will they have read the referral letter and certainly not received a copy, even as a matter of courtesy which should be standard,, and which would give a window to agree or not and to add to the notes at the start , which would help in deciding if the medics involved are trustworthy respectful and have the right approach. Even then I realise only a limited number of people will be able to act on that. So many encounters are at a basic level downright rude and even quite bizarre . Where else are extremely intimate questions asked without explanation , where else can a person see notes are being made about them without knowing what is being said, where else can they be so crude as to stick a label on someone which they know will likely damage the rest of their life ,…
Some kind of diagnosis is necessary but not in the way they are used still. People become the dehumanising labels instead of cherished complex human beings.labels which are used by the lazy minded to develop a habitual response to a collection of’symptoms’ which don’t describe complexity and which can be defended by ‘this is the way we are taught’. So who is teaching the trainees you mention ..so many fine words churned out by the eminent, distinguished, caring, compassionate puff balls – so many being damaged that we need activists which include medics with morals as well as brains to put a brake on them. It does seem that the citadel is beginning to crumble If only researchers could put as much effort into investigating the harms being created by drugs as by plastics – but then if they did the public would become too informed about the dirty secrets being defended behind the walls of drug companies, colleges of psychs/GPs and such as Cochrane.
tim says
Pre-emptive and/or Ritual Prescribing -Psychotropic Drugs.
Susanne,
“So who is it teaching the trainees you mention”?
Although my undergraduate career was focused on specialist hospital practice, it was evident in the 1970’s that the only VALID EDUCATIONAL “General Professional Training” (after the compulsory pre-registration year) was that designed for Vocational Training in General Practice. (GPVTS).
I completed this before commencing higher medical training to become a hospital consultant.
It was in a class of its own in terms of post graduate medical education.
Professional, highly organised and with dedicated time for teaching and learning.
“A Guided Voyage of Self-Discovery”.
Physical, psychological and social components of every patient encounter were acknowledged, experienced and learned from.
The quality and experience of The Consultation, for both doctor and patient, were sacrosanct .
This three years of REAL training, at that time, started with six months in General Practice with a one to one gifted trainer.
Then were there a series of hospital posts, usually for six months each.
Paediatrics, Accident and Emergency, Obstetrics and Gynaecology and General Medicine were sought out, prior to a further six months in General Practice, concluding with the RCGP Membership examination.
Many trainees chose to spend six months in psychiatry.
I chose to spend a full year in Obstetrics and Gynaecology instead.
I understand that current G.P. training, and its options remain similar, although (regrettably) – I believe all of the General Practice training now follows the two years in hospital posts. (?)
The point is that so many GPs of all ages will have been exposed to the practice and propaganda of psychiatry.
Exposed to its (alleged) misuse of psychotropic drugs, its denial and refusal to understand AKATHISIA, DEPENDENCE, WITHDRAWAL SYNDROMES and organised denial of the lethal, disabling and life-destroying toxicities of their prescribing dogma.
They are exposed to this scientifically evidence de-based indoctrination at a time of greatest belief and trust in their consultants.
A time of greatest educational vulnerability to deception.
Perhaps this is a major factor in the G.P. disbelief and denial of the intolerable harms, suffering and loss of life caused by their unshakable adherence to “safe and effective”?
Also perhaps the reason why ADRs to such dangerous drugs are followed by a referral back to the department of psychiatry where they trained, and the inevitable serial misdiagnosis of adverse drug reactions as “Severe Mental Illness”.
It is a personal experience that Vocational Training For General Practice was one of the greatest medical training advances of the 20th Century.
How much safer for patients, had they avoided the “training ” in psychiatry?
Dr. David Healy says
Evidence De-based Medicine – a great new concept
DH
annie says
– a great new Auntie ..
The Big Spin from Big Phil Hickey
Phil Hickey
@BigPhilHickey
2h
The latest from Auntie Psychiatry. (link: https://buff.ly/2D8ZxaE) buff.ly/2D8ZxaE A very relevant and telling cartoon about RCPsych and antidepressants. Please take a look, read the accompanying text, and pass it along.
http://www.auntiepsychiatry.com/Auntie%20Psychiatry.html
Spruce says
Hi Annie, I was just wondering when the Royal society of medicine podcast: episode 1, came out. Was it 2016, or 2018?
Also what a pair of ignorant morons those two doctors were! I know more about withdrawal and the truth about psychiatric drugs, despite all their fancy qualifications.
annie says
Hello Spruce
In answer to your question …
A few BINGO cards …
May 2, 2018 at 6:01 pm
This podcast by the Royal Society of Medicine left me very concerned indeed. I intend to write a critical appraisal of the contents of this podcast and to submit it to the Scottish Parliament (in relation to PE!651: prescribed drug dependence and withdrawal).
Dr Peter J. Gordon
https://videos.rsm.ac.uk/video/rsm-health-matters-podcast-episode-1—antidepressants-antibiotics-and-the-gender-pay-gap
I had assumed it would be both educational and informative but in the end it proved to be neither. Members of the online patient community were dismayed at some of the content, particularly some comments by Prof Clare Gerada.
Dr Peter Gordon has kindly transcribed the initial part of this interview which relates to antidepressants.
https://nevertrustadoctor.wordpress.com/2018/05/02/royal-society-of-medicine-podcast-rebuttal-of-complaint-by-rcpsych/
Dr John Read 3 months ago
Indeed. And nothing could be more polarising than trying to dismiss facts experiences and opinions one finds uncomfortable with silly labels like ‘pill shaming’ ‘anti psychiatry’ etc., rather than listening and engaging in sensible discussion.
And how about this for polarising… the head of a professional organisation and the organisation’s leading expert on an issue making an inaccurate and dangerous statement in the media and then suppressing research on its own website because the findings prove the statement to be false, and then lying about why the study was removed. (See Mad in America for the facts of this matter)
When are RCPsych members giving to speak up and get their leaders to engage in sensible discussions with their critics rather than polarise and suppress? I believe most psychiatrists are not as irresponsible as Profs Burn and Baldwin but you all seem very quiet about the unethical conduct of your current leadership. Except for the 10 (including a Fellow of the RCPsych) who signed the Complaint and our recent letter to the Health Secretary.
https://holeousia.com/2018/07/27/pill-shaming/
Professor Sir Simon Wessely on “Pill Shaming” and the Bingo card …
Spruce says
Thanks for that information Annie . I was hoping it would be from 2016, and not so recent, so that maybe this ignorance was from years ago.
Hopefully the new report from East London and Roehampton university will help persuade people that millions are being harmed by these drugs, and not that millions are being saved.The study they did proves that.
I genuinely don’t believe millions are being saved by antidepressants, despite what the Royal College of Psychiatrists keep saying.
I believe many, many more are harmed than “saved”.
annie says
Perhaps Shane, Mary or David would like to read out WB Autumn Statement, immediately twittered by SW …
shane cooke
@shanecooke
·
1h
Please note and support if possible- comments of support would be appreciated
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqroOfJWsAQL394.jpg
Prescribed Withdrawal @ Nant Hall Church Prestatyn
Presents
GUEST SPEAKER : – Dr David Healy
‘PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS – Can we make them Safer?
November 13th. at 6.30pm
All Welcome.
PLEASE SUPPORT
Our response to the Chancellor’s Autumn Budget 2018
Professor Wendy Burn, president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, said: “We welcome the promise from government this morning that spending on mental health will increase as a proportion of NHS spend over the next five years and look forward to seeing the detail of how this is to be delivered.
“It would take around £2.5 billion to achieve this, so we are keen to see the detail of how that is to be made up – perhaps in the NHS long-term plan later this year.
“In addition more money is needed for things like maintaining mental health care buildings and putting into practice the recommendations of the Mental Health Act Review.
“The focus on younger people and crisis services is welcome, but this mustn’t be at the expense of the vital community mental health services which treat so many people with mental illness.”
SO MANY PEOPLE, WITH MENTAL IILLNESS …
Says it all really … who is spearheading and spreading ‘Mental Illness’ …
Let’s go with buildings… before they do any more damage …
In Rio
John Read Retweeted
Laura Delano
@LauraDelano
“They either don’t know or they don’t care, but either way this is not practicing science.” –
@ReadReadj
on the multimillion $ “anti-stigma” campaign led by the #mentalhealth + pharmaceutical industries that promotes the false story that “#mentalillness is a biomedical condition.”
mary H says
Unfortunately, Annie, Wales doesn’t have a bite of the financial cake handed out in the budget for mental health. Maybe we could offer to pick up any crumbs which may be left – but then we’d only get the usual reply “Health in Wales is not provided by Westminster”! Welcome news for England though – if only there was a guarantee that it will be spent to actually do some good.
tim says
This podcast also caused concern as it appeared to promote the concept that antidepressants have a prophylactic benefit in those not-yet-depressed.
!2mins – 30 seconds into the RSM podcast:
C.G. I do use antidepressants for patients who are not depressed – also in my sick doctor service, who might have had a referral to the Regulator because I know they’re going to get depressed.
S.W. That’s fine, but you’ll need to come up with some pretty good evidence for that.
(I have not used inverted commas as this may not be verbatim, but in good faith, I believe it to be an accurate description of the discussion).
Does anyone know of such evidence?
tim says
Thats 12 minutes – 30 seconds into the podcast. (Typo).
Jen says
This article was incredible. I most definitely can relate to most of what you speak about. I have been on a combination of SSRIs and MAOIs since the age of 17. I know this sounds very very irresponsible of my parent but at that point I was on the verge of death after having attempted suicide. My mother is diagnosed as bipolar and I have had my fair share of mental struggles. Following the birth of my daughter my anxiety skyrocketed. I saw a psychologist regularly and I was taking Wellbutrin as well as Pristiq. As a single mom I had no desire to pursue men so having no sex drive was never an issue for me. I was a great mom and I was so grateful to have conquered my demons. My daughters biological father was physically and mentally abusive so I genuinely had no interest in finding a mate after the nightmare i had endured. I met a man that is 5 years older than me at a mutual friends surprise party that was introduced to me and he was such a gentleman and had a great sense of humour. Friends of mine vouched for him and said what an amazing guy he was and still i had no interest. i assumed this was because i was a strong independent woman and didn’t need a man in my life… i had gone this long on my own, who was this guy? my daughter was/is my top priority. I told him i have a daughter to scare him off but that didn’t work. anyways, fast forward five years later and this man has changed our lives- shown my daughter what a father is, coached her tee ball team, drives her to all of her gymnastics practices, brings her class cupcakes on her birthday. in spite of all this, i simply have no sex drive AT ALL. i love him so much and i find him so attractive but i feel so guilty not “being in the mood”. i have attempted to wean off my meds but unfortunately i end up a suicidal monster and still have no sex drive. i have tried cbd oil, smoking weed, other naturopathic methods but nothing helps. i don’t know what to do at this point.. i have tried my best to get off these medications but it does not serve me or my family well… my mental health declines at an alarming rate that i am a total nightmare. my boyfriend would rather me be stable on my meds with no sex drive than off them and still no sex drive.
Arto says
Just found this article. I wonder if they did a follow up on female starlings exposed to fluoxetine. Did they regain their attractiveness in male eyes after drug weaned off? That would be really interesting to know from PSSD point of view.
Nick says
Of course anti depressants will have some effect on appearance , looks etc. It is a drug. But also, a mind and spirit connection gone. When one isn’t wholesome, one will be not as fresh.
If anti depressants are blocking ones natural self, then of course you will look less radiant/fresh.
In my opinion, all drugs over a long time will alter ones appearance.